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Post by Feynman on Mar 27, 2013 12:05:32 GMT -5
On one hand I don't mind seeing another Etrian Odyssey for 3DS. The more JRPGs the merrier for that platform. On the other, it seems that V is being even more diluted than IV was to accommodate general JRPG players. From what I've read about IV and now V, they are a slope towards concessions that detour the core essence of the franchise. Not saying IV is or V could be bad games of course. I'm just saying that with every concession made, a series is in danger of losing its identity and becoming homogenized to its genre. I don't feel like EO4 went against the core essence of the series at all. It offers the same dungeon crawling goodness with better dungeon design than the series has ever seen, the most thoughtful and interesting class design yet, and it still offers a good challenge. They streamlined most of the tedious and/or boring stuff (like making item harvesting less of a pain), and they added a "casual" difficulty option, but playing on normal difficulty the game offered the same core Etrian Odyssey experience I liked the first time, just better. As for this new game, I'm not worried. It's a spinoff, not EO5, and this is Atlus we're talking about. They develop the MegaTen franchise, which has seen countless spinoffs and experimentation, yet they still haven't abandoned the core experience that makes MegaTen great. I can get behind this statement. The Dark Spire is a wonderful game. |
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Post by Montivagant on Mar 27, 2013 13:00:04 GMT -5
I don't feel like EO4 went against the core essence of the series at all. I felt that the "casual option" was a concession that went against the hardcore concept of the original trilogy. Just as I feel the "no permadeath" option in FE: Awakening is a concession as well. There are plenty of easy JRPGs out there. Let's not make the ones that actually dare to challenge you as a player bend their own rules just for the wussies. It's like someone adding an escalator to Mount Everest for people who can't make the climb. IMO there shouldn't be an easy way to the top of a hard mountain. It's disrespectful of those who actually climb it the hard way. Spinoff is one way to say it. Another is to say "testing the waters". You can bet if the tangent sells better than the trunk, the tangent will be getting sequels while the trunk withers. |
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Post by Feynman on Mar 27, 2013 13:51:28 GMT -5
There are plenty of easy JRPGs out there. Let's not make the ones that actually dare to challenge you as a player bend their own rules just for the wussies. It's like someone adding an escalator to Mount Everest for people who can't make the climb. IMO there shouldn't be an easy way to the top of a hard mountain. It's disrespectful of those who actually climb it the hard way. Damn all those losers who finished Mega Man 2 on "Normal" difficulty! It's disrespectful to those of us who cleared hard mode! I could understand if it was mandatory and the game's design as a whole was compromised, but... it's not. You're seriously arguing that the addition of an entirely optional easy mode is an abomination that ruins the game and shits on the people who play it in normal mode? To top it all off you're making huge assumptions about a series you have never played. Do you have any idea how ridiculous you sound? Well, let's take MegaTen as an example again. Since SMT3 was released, we've had 2 Persona games, 2 Devil Summoner games, 2 Devil Survivor games, and a couple other games as well. Then we got SMT: Strange Journey, which isn't technically a numbered entry in the main series but it might as well be since it plays exactly like one. Now we have SMT4 on the way... and this is after Persona 3 & 4 became blockbuster megahits. Looks to me like Atlus has been carefully evolving and branching out, not just throwing everything away to chase after the new shiny thing. Why do you instantly assume that Etrian Odyssey won't follow the same path? I can't tell if you're a very clever troll account or if you're simply the master of knee-jerk reactions and sweeping generalizations. |
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Post by rorshacma on Mar 27, 2013 14:16:15 GMT -5
I don't feel like EO4 went against the core essence of the series at all. I felt that the "casual option" was a concession that went against the hardcore concept of the original trilogy. Just as I feel the "no permadeath" option in FE: Awakening is a concession as well. There are plenty of easy JRPGs out there. Let's not make the ones that actually dare to challenge you as a player bend their own rules just for the wussies. It's like someone adding an escalator to Mount Everest for people who can't make the climb. IMO there shouldn't be an easy way to the top of a hard mountain. It's disrespectful of those who actually climb it the hard way. I honestly don't understand how having an option for "wussies", as you so elegantly put it, is disrespectful to people who wish to do things in a harder way, at all. It doesn't diminish their achievement at all. Why would it? They still did things with the difficulty intact, why does the fact that someone else chose to take things easy make that accomplishment suddenly not matter? If the entire game/franchise was redesigned entirely to ONLY contain the easier mode, then you might have cause for complaint. But having an option that can satisfy multiple types of people, I can't see as being anything but beneficial. This is especially true in something like a video game. If you want to play a difficult game/mode/whatever, it should be because you think its FUN to do so, not so you can lord over people who aren't skilled enough to do so. |
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Post by Jungyin on Mar 27, 2013 14:20:02 GMT -5
I could understand if it was mandatory and the game's design as a whole was compromised, but... it's not. You're seriously arguing that the addition of an entirely optional easy mode is an abomination that ruins the game and shits on the people who play it in normal mode? It's unfortunate how much I see that these days. For a ridiculous example: one person compared such things to a restaurant putting a plate of shit on the table with your order. "You don't have to eat it! It's completely optional!" There even were people that said the Super Guide in New Super Mario Bros. Wii ruined the game, never mind the fact it only ever appears if you die 8 times in a single level. My only guess for why they do this is that they want to see themselves as part of an elite or exclusive group, and things that let "lesser" people into the group threaten that perception. |
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Post by Montivagant on Mar 27, 2013 14:36:58 GMT -5
I could understand if it was mandatory and the game's design as a whole was compromised From what I understand, the original trilogy did not offer multiple difficulty settings, so the addition of a "casual mode" for the fourth entry seems disingenuous to the hardcore difficulty concept the series is known for. I'm saying that if you take a franchise known and championed for its hardcore difficulty, and then put an easy mode into it, it waters down the essence of the series. What was the core thing about Fire Emblem everybody talked about? Permadeath. Take that away from the series and it loses that much more of its identity in the SRPG genre. Never played, sure. Watched gameplay videos of? Check. Read the user manuals for? Check. Read dozens of reviews for? Check. Talked to other people who've played the games and gotten indepth opinions from? Check. I haven't played the games, but I know enough about them to offer a reasonably informed interjection. IMO at least. God forbid I have an opinion that differs from yours. I have an idea of how ridiculous YOU sound. With the way you take everything I say in the most extreme context possible. I've barely talked around here and you've already accused me of being an elitist, a fool, and arrogant. If you disagree with what I say, that's perfectly fine with me. But I wish you'd do it with less melodrama. Because New Etrian Odyssey: Millenium Girl is not a spinoff, it is a remake of the original game. Except it changes many core mechanics in ways which are disingenuous to its originator. In a way that signifies that Atlus wants to rebirth the series in a more appetizing manner for general JRPG players, and branch outward from there with the updated seachange mechanics. The whole thing about calling the game "New Etrian Odyssey" says volumes unto itself concerning the implications. IMO. Well bud I'd say you are the master of knee-jerk derogatory reactions thus far. It's one thing to disagree with someone, it's another to do it in a way that is simply disrespectful as hell. |
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Post by rorshacma on Mar 27, 2013 14:43:30 GMT -5
I'm saying that if you take a franchise known and championed for its hardcore difficulty, and then put an easy mode into it, it waters down the essence of the series. What was the core thing about Fire Emblem everybody talked about? Permadeath. Take that away from the series and it loses that much more of its identity in the SRPG genre. Except they DIDN'T "take it away". They gave the OPTION of taking it away, while still leaving in the option of playing with it intact. If someone felt like you did, that permadeath was the core of the franchise and that's how it should be played, they COULD. I really don't understand the problem here. |
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Post by Montivagant on Mar 27, 2013 14:50:41 GMT -5
Remember when Ninja Gaiden Black added the Ninja Dog difficulty? Remember how the game made fun of you if you used it? It did that because it knew you could do better, it pushed you to do better. Permadeath pushes you to do better. If you turn Permadeath off, you're taking the sting out of the punishment you should get for making bad strategic decisions. And in turn, you're taking the spurs off the heel of Fire Emblem's boots when it kicks you in the ass for not trying hard enough. That's how I feel about it. I just think people should play harder and as such be rewarded with a greater feeling of accomplishment as such. That's why I respected the concept of Etrian Odyssey and the Fire Emblem series. And that's why I'm a little disheartened when they start having easy modes. It's not that I'm an elitist, it's that I believe people can handle the challenge already, if they just try harder.
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Post by Allie on Mar 27, 2013 14:52:13 GMT -5
I could understand if it was mandatory and the game's design as a whole was compromised, but... it's not. You're seriously arguing that the addition of an entirely optional easy mode is an abomination that ruins the game and shits on the people who play it in normal mode? It's unfortunate how much I see that these days. For a ridiculous example: one person compared such things to a restaurant putting a plate of shit on the table with your order. "You don't have to eat it! It's completely optional!" There even were people that said the Super Guide in New Super Mario Bros. Wii ruined the game, never mind the fact it only ever appears if you die 8 times in a single level. My only guess for why they do this is that they want to see themselves as part of an elite or exclusive group, and things that let "lesser" people into the group threaten that perception. It's an attitude that rears its ugly head far too often in video game circles. |
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Post by Montivagant on Mar 27, 2013 14:55:39 GMT -5
Why is it an ugly headed attitude to think people can do better if they try? That they don't need easy modes, or cheat codes, or walkthroughs? I have an ugly head for believing people are capable of handling a game's default challenge on their own, if they just put forth the effort?
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Post by The Great Klaid on Mar 27, 2013 15:04:22 GMT -5
I liked casual mode on both EO4 and Fire Emblem 3DS. I am a fan of both genres and what most would term a hardcore gamer. I however enjoy the concessions that both have granted me in that I can play Fire Emblem and not get all pissed off when a unit gets cheapshotted to death or when I've gained three levels in Etrian Odyssey to not lose it all when I got snuck up on by a FOE. I love having the choice. If I want to play EO4 in it's proper mode later, I will. I would have never played Devil May Cry if it weren't for easy mode. I wanted to experience the story. If Outlaws would have not offered me the easy mode I wouldn't have played it as a kid and enjoyed playing hard mode nowadays.
Is it so hard to allow people to enjoy a game on their terms? Feynman is right, look at SMT. They branched out and dumbed down their formula with Persona. Or Last Bible. If it wasn't for Persona teaching me the basics of SMT I wouldn't be playing Strange Journey or Devil Survivor. As for my Devil May Cry 3 example, playing it in easy allowed me to see the game to completion. It also allowed me to walk away and say it's not a game I want to get into depth with. I get my $5 out of it as opposed to getting killed over and over on the second mission and feeling cheated. Adding an easy mode has never ruined a franchise. And in this age of the internet and company's hearing their fan's complaints it won't.
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Post by rorshacma on Mar 27, 2013 15:05:36 GMT -5
Remember when Ninja Gaiden Black added the Ninja Dog difficulty? Remember how the game made fun of you if you used it? It did that because it knew you could do better, it pushed you to do better. Permadeath pushes you to do better. If you turn Permadeath off, you're taking the sting out of the punishment you should get for making bad strategic decisions. And in turn, you're taking the spurs off the heel of Fire Emblem's boots when it kicks you in the ass for not trying hard enough. That's how I feel about it. I just think people should play harder and as such be rewarded with a greater feeling of accomplishment as such. That's why I respected the concept of Etrian Odyssey and the Fire Emblem series. And that's why I'm a little disheartened when they start having easy modes. It's not that I'm an elitist, it's that I believe people can handle the challenge already, if they just try harder. Except not everyone CAN do better. Not everyone feels that this is something that's so important that you HAVE to do better. Some people don't even GET much of a feeling of accomplishment for beating hard game. If you DO feel this way, then great, you can play the game on the regular difficulty, since its still included in the game. That's why having options is a great thing. If someone can't enjoy the game without the proper challenge, they can play the game with the proper challenge. If someone doesn't give a shit about challenge but just wants to experience the story, or see the pretty animations, or, hell, just wants to kill some time with it, they can do that as well. The existence of an OPTION for this second group should not have any effect on the first group if they can still play the game the way they want. And the first group shouldn't even care about the second groups existence, since, why should they care if they have a differing opinion on how games should be played, if they can continue to play in the manner of their choosing? |
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Post by Allie on Mar 27, 2013 15:08:24 GMT -5
Why is it an ugly headed attitude to think people can do better if they try? That they don't need easy modes, or cheat codes, or walkthroughs? I have an ugly head for believing people are capable of handling a game's default challenge on their own, if they just put forth the effort? For making the response about yourself when you're hardly the first, second, or even [arbitrary number down the line, because there will be more]th. |
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Post by 9inchsamurai on Mar 27, 2013 15:08:41 GMT -5
Why is it an ugly headed attitude to think people can do better if they try? That they don't need easy modes, or cheat codes, or walkthroughs? I have an ugly head for believing people are capable of handling a game's default challenge on their own, if they just put forth the effort? Not everyone wants the same things out of a game that you do. As long as the core audience of a franchise is satisfied with what they're getting, adding in options for more players to play a game isn't a bad thing. It's definitely too early to start a slippery slope predicting the "downfall" of the Etrian Odyssey series just because EO4 has a Casual mode and Atlus announced a more traditional-styled "remake" of the first game which, by the way, was given a new title to signify a distancing from the "core" games; they could have easily called it Etrian Odyssey: Millennium Girl like what Square Enix did with the DS Dragon Quest remakes, but they didn't. |
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Post by Montivagant on Mar 27, 2013 15:18:58 GMT -5
Well I appreciate your opinions and that you guys said them in a more respectful way. It helps me to understand the other side of the fence more clearly.
There just seems to be a consensus in general that games are getting ever easier, especially in this last generation. Yes there have been exceptions like the Souls series. But those are the exceptions, not the rule. A large part of my personal enjoyment for gaming is the challenge aspect. I get more personal fulfillment from beating hard games than I do easy ones. I feel like I accomplished more. For example, my first SMT game was Nocturne. All I ever heard about it was "it's too hard". I found it to be wonderfully challenging though, in a positive way. There were times where I thought it was too much... but because there was no "easy mode" to run to, I pushed myself to be a better player. And I overcame those challenges. In the end, I respected the game for pushing me that hard. I respected myself for not giving up, and becoming a more skilled gamer for it.
But that's just the way I feel and I understand if you guys don't agree with me. And I don't hold it against you, so please don't hold my stance against me.
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