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Post by Snake on Aug 21, 2019 20:17:43 GMT -5
They both look really good. Really digging Freya.
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Post by 🧀Son of Suzy Creamcheese🧀 on Aug 22, 2019 6:17:48 GMT -5
What? ? That faux-80s nostalgia look isn't a match for the original games at all, which were very much in line with the "Genesis gritty" look of so many games on the console. Somebody hurting people with musical notes would have in no way fit with the original games, FFS. I want to leave this topic alone but this is such nonsense. And somebody said something about the original goons looking like they could have come out of some cheesy old rock band? They were generally modeled after street punks and The Warriors types, not musicians. I'm confused because I'm pretty sure you were alive in the '90s. Maybe it was different in Europe? Because here, it wasn't rare to see groups of people with mohawks and ragged clothes. Nobody looked at some street punk with a studded leather coat and a pet rat on his shoulder and thought "lol so cheesy, I love it". SOR was extravagant, like most games of the era, but it was in no way going for "cheese". We're just gonna have to agree to disagree I guess. I haven't really seen anything in SoR4 that looks out of place, stylistically or otherwise, for the series. And yeah, I was alive during the 90's, but I was born in '94 and live in a rural-ish part of the Netherlands, so...
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Post by windfisch on Aug 22, 2019 6:50:30 GMT -5
One man's/woman's cheese is another one's gritty rotten milk, I guess. To me it doesn't get more tongue-in cheek-silly than this (even in terms of music):
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Post by Bobinator on Aug 22, 2019 13:38:21 GMT -5
Is it OK to think this looks good yet, or...?
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Post by toei on Aug 22, 2019 16:16:29 GMT -5
One man's/woman's cheese is another one's gritty rotten milk, I guess. To me it doesn't get more tongue-in cheek-silly than this (even in terms of music):
It's exaggerated in a very first-half-of-the-90s videogame way - it's basically a logical progression from the Final Fight bonus stage where you beat up a car to death - but it's not particularly cheesy. There's a connotation of unoriginality to that word - those cheesy '80s action movies, for example, which are all the same. But that sequence isn't some stale, overdone garbage like hurting people with rebellious rock-'n-roll guitar playing. It's an original variation on an existing theme. And it might seem weird to you now, but it was a perfectly normal thing to run into in a videogame at the time. This is my issue. There's no way anyone involved in the development of the first three games ever went, "lol this is so bad it's good, omg I love camp", which is what I'm basically hearing from people who like the whole electric guitar thing. They were just doing things that were cool at the time. This new crap reeks of clueless isn't-retro-so-quaint bs, where everything from a loosely-defined era gets lumped together into some bastard "nostalgic" form that never existed. Like that 198X game, which revolves around an '80s arcade, yet half the games are clones of '90s console games that aren't really like anything that existed in the '80s. If you're old enough to remember the '90s, you know that the cultural zeitgeist was in a very different place than it had been in the previous decade, partially as a reaction against what it had been. And even in terms of video games, design standards evolved as fast as technology. A game like Shinobi 3, released in 1993, could not have been released in the '80s, period. So because I know and remember all that stuff very well, and still care about it (foolishly or not), I can't accept all that artificial nonsense. Also, the music is hard techno, so no, it's not supposed to be silly. Koshiro and his composing partner (forget his name) were really into clubbing to that kind of music. There was absolutely no irony involved.
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Post by 🧀Son of Suzy Creamcheese🧀 on Aug 22, 2019 16:54:12 GMT -5
I don't find that part very silly either, but that doesn't mean there isn't plenty of other stuff in SoR that IS silly. In fact, outside of the guitar weapon there's nothing really that 'silly' about SoR4 yet. If anything, the complaint should be that it's too grounded (I'm sure there will be some more out-there stuff in the later stages though). I also fail to see how hurting people with guitar notes is a played-out, common thing. Outside of Guilty Gear I can't think of any other games from the top of my head that have that.
And what's so 80's about SoR4 anyway? Again, I have yet to see anything that would look out of place if you turn it into Genesis-era pixelart.
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Post by toei on Aug 22, 2019 17:13:41 GMT -5
I don't find that part very silly either, but that doesn't mean there isn't plenty of other stuff in SoR that IS silly. In fact, outside of the guitar weapon there's nothing really that 'silly' about SoR4 yet. If anything, the complaint should be that it's too grounded (I'm sure there will be some more out-there stuff in the later stages though). I also fail to see how hurting people with guitar notes is a played-out, common thing. Outside of Guilty Gear I can't think of any other games from the top of my head that have that. And what's so 80's about SoR4 anyway? Again, I have yet to see anything that would look out of place if you turn it into Genesis-era pixelart. The guitar thing is very '80s. I've seen the same idea used in various movies, comics, cartoons, etc. growing up. I can't give you a list because it usually the kind of dumb thing I hated, but it was already corny and played out when I was a kid. It's like that Twisted Sister video (which is actually kind of funny, in retrospect). That said, I went on a tangent in that post where I criticized faux-retro as whole, and most of it is grounded in the '80s, but that part didn't target SOR4 specifically.
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Post by windfisch on Aug 22, 2019 18:06:23 GMT -5
Also, the music is hard techno, so no, it's not supposed to be silly. Koshiro and his composing partner (forget his name) were really into clubbing to that kind of music. There was absolutely no irony involved. Jeez, you don't have to lecture me on music genres And I'm very aware that both, Koshiro and Kawashima, genuinely liked that kinda stuff. Yet not despite, but because of that fact, they clearly were having some fun with the music of SoR3. It is actually possible to love something and at the same time to (occasionally) mock it it, you know? To me it's obvious that *some* of the tracks have a sense of irony to them, somewhat similar to how people like Frank Zappa used techniques like occasional subversion of conventions to express humour through music. Sometimes it's simple nuances that make a difference. It's hard to describe, you either get it or you don't. In this case I guess it has to do with the overly monotonous beat vaguely mimicking a machine-like sound, creating a weird symbiosis with the on-screen bulldozer and reflecting the repetitious nature of the stage. Sure, not everybody may find that stuff amusing, but I sure do.
And please don't tell me the barrel dropping at the head of the bulldozer's driver is supposed to be "gritty". It's a silly punchline, nothing more nothing less.
Edit: The SoR4 gameplay-footage looks pretty good - it gives the art and animation a chance to shine in a way the trailers could not.
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Post by retr0gamer on Aug 22, 2019 18:10:08 GMT -5
I'm willing to give the game the benefit of the doubt. The developer has a proven track record of good games and it looks like it plays well. However it just looks tonally totally different from the originals and the gameplay looks like it has more in common with Double Dragon Neon than SoR (not a bad thing as there seems to be a lot more variety as well). The art is too cartoony unlike the original gritty originals. It's a far cry from Blazing Chrome which nails the 90's aesthetic.
But then if it wants to be it's own thing and it's good then I'm on board.
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Post by toei on Aug 22, 2019 18:25:38 GMT -5
windfisch How am I supposed to know how familiar you might be with specific music genres? And yes, the composers having the music match the action on-screen like composers most commonly do is probably only funny to you. I used the term gritty to describe the overall aesthetic and feel. But it's basically manga gritty, with American pop culture inspiration as filtered through Japanese eyes. If you can't see how it and lot of Genesis games stand out as grittier in an era partially defined by Mario, Sonic and the like, I can't help you. And of course the barrel thing is a basic cartoon joke. Are we going to pretend like this is a defining or representative moment for the series? Streets of Rage, that ol' slapstick comedy series? Come on.
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Post by windfisch on Aug 22, 2019 19:57:40 GMT -5
And yes, the composers having the music match the action on-screen like composers most commonly do is probably only funny to you. ....And of course the barrel thing is a basic cartoon joke. Are we going to pretend like this is a defining or representative moment for the series? Streets of Rage, that ol' slapstick comedy series? Come on. Again, thanks for another lesson in music theory
And actually it's not quite like that, is it? Most composers for games (and movies etc.) may use music that is generally fitting, but not so much a mere 1:1 match for what is happening on the visual level (the latter would be something you'd see in a Chuck Jones cartoon). Instead their music often adds another layer, giving additional meaning to a scene.
Like I said it's hard to describe, I'll try again: The track (working in tandem with the on-screen action) is funny to me, because it is deliberately dull, so cartoonishly on the nose and at the same time slightly off-sounding (in a Jaques Tati kinda way, if I may use that inept analogy).
And nobody has said anything about SoR games being slapstick only - simply that they have these elements, too and that the developers did show some self-aware sense of humour.
Edit: Actually SoR is nothing but slapstick, if you really think about it
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Post by chronotigger65 on Aug 22, 2019 20:07:19 GMT -5
I figure why not. Sorry if this has already been place here before.
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Post by toei on Aug 22, 2019 20:30:38 GMT -5
windfisch Do you always interpret words in the most literal sense, regardless of context? If I say Streets of Rage is gritty, you say "it can't be gritty, THERE'S A JOKE IN THERE!". If I say composers match music to scenes, you say "they don't match it, they make it generally fit!" I'm very aware of how music is used in film, tv and games, too. I don't feel the need to get huffy and weirdly defensive about it, though, possibly because I'm not so insecure that I take any statement about a thing I know a little about as some condescending attack (you in your next reply: "thanks for the lovely psychology lesson *random emoji*"). As for that scene, I think it's just as likely that the developers went, "there's this short scene where you're destroying walls and stuff, give us a hard beat to go with it" and this was the result. I also think you're doing that music / film critic thing where you pull things out of your imagination and confidently announce that this is what this or that part really means, obviously, and then go on about *insert random idea ranging from dubious theory to complete absurdity*. Anyway, our hijacking of this thread is probably getting boring for the other users, don't you think? I know it's my fault as well, but it's probably time to move on. You can still answer obviously, but I'll probably just PM you if I have anything to add and you still want to keep this topic going.
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Post by windfisch on Aug 22, 2019 22:46:23 GMT -5
windfisch Do you always interpret words in the most literal sense, regardless of context? If I say Streets of Rage is gritty, you say "it can't be gritty, THERE'S A JOKE IN THERE!". If I say composers match music to scenes, you say "they don't match it, they make it generally fit!" I'm very aware of how music is used in film, tv and games, too. I don't feel the need to get huffy and weirdly defensive about it, though, possibly because I'm not so insecure that I take any statement about a thing I know a little about as some condescending attack (you in your next reply: "thanks for the lovely psychology lesson *random emoji*"). As for that scene, I think it's just as likely that the developers went, "there's this short scene where you're destroying walls and stuff, give us a hard beat to go with it" and this was the result. I also think you're doing that music / film critic thing where you pull things out of your imagination and confidently announce that this is what this or that part really means, obviously, and then go on about *insert random idea ranging from dubious theory to complete absurdity*. Anyway, our hijacking of this thread is probably getting boring for the other users, don't you think? I know it's my fault as well, but it's probably time to move on. You can still answer obviously, but I'll probably just PM you if I have anything to add and you still want to keep this topic going. You do get personal a lot. And you make quite a few assumptions about people you don't know. There's no fun in that, so I'm done.
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Post by GamerL on Aug 23, 2019 3:46:43 GMT -5
Finished Bloodstained.
I can kinda see what people mean about the last couple of areas of the game, they were somewhat lame, in fact the final area doesn't really scream "final area" much, I was surprised that it was really the last one.
I'm also disappointed that there's no equivalent to the Inner Quarters/Demon Guest House from Aria of Sorrow and Dawn of Sorrow, that was one of my favorite themes and seemed like it would have been a natural fit for Bloodstained, but maybe next time.
Despite a few small complaints that was a great game, I'm honestly sad that it's over, that was a hell of a long wait since IGA's last game, over a decade in fact, hopefully it won't be that long till Bloodstained 2.
While it doesn't quite hit the same highs as the Metroidvanias at their best, it's still absolutely a worthy successor, I can't wait to see what's next.
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