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Post by Discoalucard on Sept 13, 2014 23:17:54 GMT -5
www.hardcoregaming101.net/systemshock/systemshock.htmI originally started this article four years ago. Four years! What the hell took so long? Well, mostly it was because I'd never played that much of System Shock 2. I got it when it came out, but I hadn't bought a proper video card (yet) and the performance was very poor. I think I got up to the storage area and gave up, even after I got a proper 3dfx card. I tried again several years later in the week before Bioshock came out, but only got up to Hydroponics before getting distracted. Since I'd gotten the fixed up Steam version as part of some kind of bundle, I figured I'd give it another shot and finally finish this off. The main reason I wanted to write this article is that I REALLY like the first System Shock. It's old and kludgy now, but man back in 1995 it was incredible. The combat was bad then too, so I always stuck that to zero and just played it like an adventure game. The atmosphere, the story, everything is just so good. I wrote a UHS hint file years ago for it, which includes maps, that he had to vet through Electronic Arts PR, and I think they denied us but we did some kind of workaround where we used them anyway. At first I didn't like System Shock 2 since it changed so drastically, forcing you to play it like an action game, removing cyberspace, adding really frustrating stuff like weapon degradation and RPG elements that seems to close off too much of the game. They later issued a patch to fix up some of that, but I'd given up by that point. Of course in retrospect it's cool to compare it to Bioshock, which borrows the same basic framework and narrative devices, but really takes a hacksaw to the RPG elements. In some ways I don't think that was a bad idea, because System Shock 2 isn't particularly well balanced and it can be really frustrating if you don't know how to build up your character. But instead of trying to rebalance it they just ended up removing almost all of it. Apparently early builds of Bioshock kept a lot of that stuff but removed it when it hit focus groups. It's a bummer, I wish someone would mod it to make it more like System Shock 2.
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Blake Casimir
Full Member
Space meditations from Alpha Centauri.
Posts: 105
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Post by Blake Casimir on Sept 14, 2014 4:40:09 GMT -5
Possibly the greatest series of games in existence? Yes, really I went there. I'd pick this over Mario in a heartbeat. It does absolutely everything brilliantly, exploration, immersion, action, RPG elements, soundtrack... very glad to finally see this article here. These immersive sims - particularly Ultima Underworld, System Shock and Thief - went a long way towards giving the player the feeling that they were interacting meaningfully with a world beyond the usual shoot stuff and press buttons monotony of even Doom (I say this as someone that still plays Doom to this day), let alone today's FPSs.
As mentioned in the article there is a traditional WSAD / mouselook mod for the original System Shock which makes it much easier to play. I'd recommend that to those playing the game again or for the first time.
Edit: I also highly, HIGHLY RECOMMEND playing through Christine Zink's fan missions after System Shock 2. They feel like a natural continuation and are just "more System Shock", which is a rare and valuable treat.
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Post by TheChosen on Sept 14, 2014 4:49:00 GMT -5
I've never got around to play the second game, but I really love the first System Shock and I've been looking for a cheap retail copy for ages.
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Post by GamerL on Sept 14, 2014 7:36:42 GMT -5
I don't love System Shock 2 as much as everyone else seems to, I'm not saying it's a bad game, far from it, but I can't help but feel like Bioshock was an improvement in almost every way, is that so wrong? System Shock 2 is a hell of a lot harder and more complicated, but does that make it better? in my opinion no
I guess this all just boils down to personal taste and experience, perhaps if I had played SS2 when it originally came out years before Bioshock I would feel differently, but speaking as someone who played Bioshock first, Bioshock is simply just more fun to play for me, which I think is more important than how "deep" a game is or whatever
at the very least, can we all agree that Bioshock is a big improvement story and aesthetic wise? System Shock 2's "cyberpunk in space" story and 90's comic book color palette is just fine and dandy, plus it's certainly got some scary and memorable moments, but it can't beat Bioshock's art deco style and more political story, there's a reason Big Daddies have joined the pantheon of video game iconography
for me personally the most fascinating thing about System Shock 2 was just seeing the similarities with Bioshock, it gave me the same feeling I had when I played Metal Gear 2 and saw how similar to Metal Gear Solid it was, it's always neat when you discover precursor games like that
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Post by Discoalucard on Sept 14, 2014 13:47:50 GMT -5
I don't love System Shock 2 as much as everyone else seems to, I'm not saying it's a bad game, far from it, but I can't help but feel like Bioshock was an improvement in almost every way, is that so wrong? System Shock 2 is a hell of a lot harder and more complicated, but does that make it better? in my opinion no I kind of agree, but Bioshock made things a little too simple. Like, one of my most frustrating moments when I first played System Shock 2 was when I found the energy sword. And I though, awesome! But it wouldn't let me use it because I didn't have any skill points in Energy. So, I began putting all of my cyber modules up until the point where I could wield it...and then it kinda sucked. That's one of the problems with this sort of level building, you don't really know what's useful and what isn't unless you've either spent a lot of time experimenting and starting over, or you've read other people's experiences. I think the general consensus of System Shock 2 players is that newbies shouldn't specialize in PSI, because it's really for more experienced players, but the game doesn't indicate that, nor does it indicate that the "jack of all trades" build will give you an extremely hard time. But with Bioshock, everything's just a little too easy. I like customizing my characters, but at the end of the game you pretty much had everything. The choices with the little sisters didn't amount to much. I think it would've been better if they took System Shock 2, and maybe paired back some of the skills. And also, made it so that weapons didn't have skill requirements...it would just be weak if you had a lower skill instead of not letting you use it at all. The way Bioshock did research, with the camera, was definitely an improvement. I feel they botched it with the resurrection chambers though. The first time you enter a new level in SS1 or SS2, there's always that overwhelming sense of vulnerability, as you rush to find it before you get killed. In Bioshock, there's always one automatically activated at the entrance, so that's totally missing. The option to disable it in the patch didn't help things.
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Post by derboo on Sept 14, 2014 14:11:32 GMT -5
These days, my most vivid memory of Bioshock is of that stupid Pipe Dreams clone "hacking" mini game you had to do like a thousand times.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Sept 14, 2014 15:02:57 GMT -5
I know a lot of folks here facepalm when they hear the name Tim Rogers, but this Bioshock review is one of his most coherent and well-reasoned criticisms, and his usual "new games journalism" silliness is pretty unobtrusive. Also see his Dead Space review.
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Post by Snarboo on Sept 14, 2014 15:44:15 GMT -5
These days it's probably best to apply a fan patch or mod when playing System Shock 2, unless you REALLY want to play the unaltered experience. I've played through the game four or five times, and I definitely had more fun with mods that rebalanced the skill tree, enemies and weaponry.
Edit: There's an error in the Bioshock portion: the first two games let you carry every weapon at once, which you equip via a weapon wheel. I'm not sure about Infinite, however.
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Post by GamerL on Sept 14, 2014 18:55:05 GMT -5
I don't love System Shock 2 as much as everyone else seems to, I'm not saying it's a bad game, far from it, but I can't help but feel like Bioshock was an improvement in almost every way, is that so wrong? System Shock 2 is a hell of a lot harder and more complicated, but does that make it better? in my opinion no I kind of agree, but Bioshock made things a little too simple. Like, one of my most frustrating moments when I first played System Shock 2 was when I found the energy sword. And I though, awesome! But it wouldn't let me use it because I didn't have any skill points in Energy. So, I began putting all of my cyber modules up until the point where I could wield it...and then it kinda sucked. That's one of the problems with this sort of level building, you don't really know what's useful and what isn't unless you've either spent a lot of time experimenting and starting over, or you've read other people's experiences. I think the general consensus of System Shock 2 players is that newbies shouldn't specialize in PSI, because it's really for more experienced players, but the game doesn't indicate that, nor does it indicate that the "jack of all trades" build will give you an extremely hard time. But with Bioshock, everything's just a little too easy. I like customizing my characters, but at the end of the game you pretty much had everything. The choices with the little sisters didn't amount to much. I think it would've been better if they took System Shock 2, and maybe paired back some of the skills. And also, made it so that weapons didn't have skill requirements...it would just be weak if you had a lower skill instead of not letting you use it at all. The way Bioshock did research, with the camera, was definitely an improvement. I feel they botched it with the resurrection chambers though. The first time you enter a new level in SS1 or SS2, there's always that overwhelming sense of vulnerability, as you rush to find it before you get killed. In Bioshock, there's always one automatically activated at the entrance, so that's totally missing. The option to disable it in the patch didn't help things. I will agree that Bioshock is a bit too easy at times, it would have been cool if you had to find and "activate" the Vita chambers like you said for example, but even so it's not enough to ruin the game or make it inferior to SS2 Bioshock Infinite however, simplified things a bit too much, say what you will about Bioshock being too easy but it was still a "Shock" game through and through, Bioshock Infinite with it's more linear levels and two weapon at a time limit felt more like a typical FPS with a few Shock elements thrown in for flavor, this disappointed me, especially considering the pre-release trailers implied it would be very much the opposite of linear, however it's still worth playing (and the DLC for Infinite brings back some sorely missed elements from the first game. it's just too bad the main game couldn't have been like that)
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Post by Discoalucard on Sept 14, 2014 18:59:56 GMT -5
Edit: There's an error in the Bioshock portion: the first two games let you carry every weapon at once, which you equip via a weapon wheel. I'm not sure about Infinite, however. Got that confused with Infinite, yeah. Fixed! I've beaten Bioshock and played a fair bit of Bioshock, but only spent maybe an hour with Infinite. It's pretty, at least.
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Post by Weasel on Sept 14, 2014 21:00:33 GMT -5
My biggest problem with Bioshock was the complete removal of the inventory system. Okay, so you can only equip a certain number of plasmids and gene tonics at a time, but you can still carry pretty much every weapon in the game at once, and you can't stockpile any of the health items other than first aids and EVE hypos, since all of the little bags of chips, cigarettes, and beer are instant-use. Even if you find a trashcan that has $100 in it, if there's a couple of bottles of whiskey in that can as well, you pretty much have to quaff the whiskeys on the spot to get the $100, even if that means losing EVE and getting horribly drunk for a few seconds.
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Post by bakudon on Sept 14, 2014 23:32:36 GMT -5
Those resurrect chambers always kinda felt like cheating to me, so I always loaded my game if I died.
I remember starting playing SS2 as PSI dude, but quickly altered my character to a navy (tech) dude as I noticed how tough it was to get anywhere against droids. Maybe if PSI energy recharged by itself, or the amps were more plentiful... But alas, no.
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Post by nightdreamer on Sept 15, 2014 4:40:11 GMT -5
I know a lot of folks here facepalm when they hear the name Tim Rogers, but this Bioshock review is one of his most coherent and well-reasoned criticisms, and his usual "new games journalism" silliness is pretty unobtrusive. Also see his Dead Space review. First few paragraphs: he matters, other critics suck, fleetwood mac sucks, django reinhardt sucks, a bunch of lo-fi youtube vids with very unclear audio is true music. first three paragraphs, completely unrelated to the game. Even in his supposedly more 'coherent' review he remains too try-hard elitist. No thanks. EDIT: btw, Fleetwood Mac and Django Reinhardt rule. Also, the black-and-white design in actionbutton is still terrible.
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Post by GamerL on Sept 15, 2014 8:13:07 GMT -5
Edit: There's an error in the Bioshock portion: the first two games let you carry every weapon at once, which you equip via a weapon wheel. I'm not sure about Infinite, however. Got that confused with Infinite, yeah. Fixed! I've beaten Bioshock and played a fair bit of Bioshock, but only spent maybe an hour with Infinite. It's pretty, at least. I hate to be a Bioshock Infinite basher because it's a game made with the best intentions in mind, it reached for the sky (ha) even if it fell short, but gaming could use more ambitious failures versus mediocre "successes" (*cough*Call of Duty*cough*), for those reasons alone it's worthy of respect buuuuuut it's still a disappointment that stings pretty badly to me because of all the potential it had, go back and watch this E3 2011 trailer link, pretty incredible right? well guess what, the final game is nothing like that, nothing that happens in the trailer made it into the final game (though there are a few parallels) I think the two biggest fundamental difference between Bioshock and Bioshock infinite are thus, Bioshock is basically broken up into a series of free-roaming levels where you have a variety of objectives to complete, not only did this create a wonderful sense of exploration when you would discover a hidden nook and cranny, it also had the effect of making Rapture feel like a real place, Bioshock infinite on the other hand is mostly linear levels broken up by the occasional "hub area" and a few nooks and crannies along the linear path for players paying attention, this has the effect of making Columbia feel more like a theme park ride than an actual place secondly the majority of enemies you fight are just normal humans with guns, gone are the pipe wielding mutants and the like and with it is that wonderful feeling of exploring a creepy environment and having a hideous mutant or freak of nature pop out and scare the crap out of you which is to me the essence of what makes a "Shock" game, instead Bioshock Infinite has many epic gunfights against a dozen or more cannon fodder enemies broken up by the occasional robot thing or Vigor empowered dude, this just makes it feel more like a generic FPS also, another problem I have with Infinite is the storyline seemed to have undergone heavy revisions, originally the game seemed to satirize solely American exceptionalism, it was a pretty provocative idea to have the "bad guys" in a video game saturated with American iconography, however along the way Ken Levine for whatever reason decided to muddy the waters and make Columbia less about America and more like what would happen if the Confederacy won the civil war, the citizens of Columbia went from idolizing Lincoln alongside the other US Presidents to scorning him for example and a greater emphasis was placed on racism, you may be asking yourself "but what about this image seen in the very first trailer for the game?" you're right, that's pretty racist, but the keyword here is " foreign hordes", implying that anyone that's not from America is inferior, not necessarily that anyone who isn't white is inferior, it's a subtle but important difference this has the effect of making the story in Infinite seem pretty shallow despite all it's grandstanding, there was a lot of moral ambiguity in the storyline of Bioshock, but what exactly is Ken Levine trying to say with Infinite? that racism is bad? that's hardly a provocative or controversial stance at the end of the day Bioshock Infinite is still a pretty good game and well worth playing, just one that fell short of it's original potential, but compared to the average modern FPS it's quite good, I'm reminded of another video game series that I think is also a spiritual successor to System Shock, Deus Ex, that one had an absolutely brilliant first installment and then a sequel that, while not bad when taken on it's own merits, nevertheless failed to live up to that original, alas, lightning is hard to catch in a bottle twice, here's hoping we haven't heard the last of Ken Levine
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Post by nickz on Sept 15, 2014 9:13:40 GMT -5
I really enjoyed reading this article. I've only played the first System Shock and wasn't even aware that it had a sequel until a couple years ago! It was fun to read about the series and how it made so many changes from one installment, to the next, to even its spiritual successors.
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