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Post by Scylla on Jun 8, 2016 20:04:46 GMT -5
I don't know if I can talk reasonably about this with you, since you seem to have gone from 1 to 11 over a relatively non-volatile topic. No need for this thread to get locked, I've said my piece. Fair enough if you've said your piece, but it's hardly getting heated here. I don't see anything in this topic that's remotely close to what usually results in a lock. I'm mostly asking questions and presenting examples that I think are fair analogies to criticizing or warning about a story-focused game for being story-focused. It's a twisted kind of outlook that isn't applied to any other gaming genres, which I'd venture to guess is because games with minimal gameplay are still very foreign to most Western gamers, especially the older crowd who grew up with traditional action games. If we have to explain and warn people about the core, defining elements of genres, then I think we've seriously lost our way in the analysis of games. All I need to know to avoid a game in a genre I don't care for is that it belongs to said genre. That's it. I don't need to see the entire genre lambasted to help nor appease me. As long as nobody is trying to pass a visual novel or "walking simulator" or whatever off as an action game or the like, there's no problem.
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Post by JDarkside on Jun 8, 2016 20:05:35 GMT -5
Ah, I see the confusion; The tagline Kurt used implies something different from what I wrote:
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Post by Deleted on Jun 8, 2016 20:15:29 GMT -5
JDarkside : You're criticizing waifu culture despite loudly announcing whatever latest H-game you're playing. seconding this *cough*
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Post by Discoalucard on Jun 8, 2016 20:27:03 GMT -5
Gone Home isn't the "first" walking simulator, but it the gave that granted the subgenre its name, and is probably the first "big" one. That ties into the criticism regarding it, I feel. Certain aspects of genres become codified, which makes sense for certain things, like visual novels not being interactive, but ends up becoming a defense against criticism. Like, "JRPGs have to have random battles" or "modern FPS games are super linear". For the case of Gone Home in particular, I think a lot of people just weren't familiar with the type of game it was trying to be, because very few had real experience with it. Now that there have been more types of similar games, there's a better idea of what to expect and how critics can communicate that. Hi, stop trying to start shit for no reason, thanks!
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Post by Deleted on Jun 8, 2016 20:28:46 GMT -5
Is it wrong to want a clarification from jdarkside when he arguably says one thing and does another?
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Post by Discoalucard on Jun 8, 2016 20:43:14 GMT -5
Yes because it has nothing to do with the topic and you're only interested in fighting with him.
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Post by Snarboo on Jun 8, 2016 20:45:52 GMT -5
Is it wrong to want a clarification from jdarkside when he arguably says one thing and does another? No, but we have a private messaging system for exactly that purpose? Why are we making this about the article author again?
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Post by Weasel on Jun 8, 2016 20:59:01 GMT -5
Agreed here - if you have beef with the author specifically, take it up with them privately. Let this thread be about the game and article, please.
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Post by Kubo Caskett on Jun 8, 2016 21:14:42 GMT -5
I hate to be on the contrary but you sound like people not liking stuff like Gone Home and Ghostbusters are mostly made up of sexist pr--ks who just hate having women be featured in various media. I mean it's not a really healthy viewpoint to have, really. I mean granted there may be a few people who are like that and trolls but still sometimes people may have a point in not liking them; you can disagree of course, not saying you can't. don't bother trying to change his mind. I tried, more than once. Meh, I figured he won't bother but I'm still saying this because well it's something that I observed when looking up the Depression quest controversy.
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Post by JDarkside on Jun 8, 2016 21:20:56 GMT -5
The discourse is kind of poisoned by the misogynist asshats. You need to realize that when you bring those sorts of subjects up. I have no idea what the numbers are, but they're the loudest voices, and a lot of people who suddenly found out about this game and started complaining about it rarely did it with actual personal thoughts or criticisms, but parroted points from lunatics. That's basically big topic nerd discourse 101 at this point.
I've been genuinely impressed by a lot of the talk here because it's worlds more mature than the angry shouting I've seen elsewhere. I think enough time has past that the crazies have gone onto another target (thank god). Ghostbusters is still a new thing, so it's waaaaaaaay more difficult to talk about even-handedly because the loonies are still screaming up a storm.
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Post by GamerL on Jun 8, 2016 22:46:10 GMT -5
I've been genuinely impressed by a lot of the talk here because it's worlds more mature than the angry shouting I've seen elsewhere. I think enough time has past that the crazies have gone onto another target (thank god). Ghostbusters is still a new thing, so it's waaaaaaaay more difficult to talk about even-handedly because the loonies are still screaming up a storm. Meanwhile the latest issue of Time magazine has an article devoted to the new Ghostbusters urging people to see it simply to spite misogynists. While obviously there really are misogynists who hate Gone Home and 2016 Ghostbusters purely for misogynistic reasons, it really bothers me how the debate over the merits of these things too frequently boil down to misogynists vs feminists, especially in the case of the new Ghostbusters which looks like an objectively terrible movie and yet people are urging others to see it out of spite, is that really where we're at now? It's why I can't help but wish the story in Gone Home was different, we have an interesting idea for a game (explore a house and learn about the family that lives there!) but because it's an indie game from 2013 of course it's going to turn out to be about a lesbian feminist which in turn politicizes it in a way it wouldn't be otherwise, while obviously the developers have every right to tell whatever story they wanted to, I just think it's a shame the game itself got overshadowed by the culture war gripping modern gaming. Especially because that's only one aspect of the story, like you said there's a lot of backstory with the father and stuff which is all very interesting.
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Post by Malev on Jun 9, 2016 0:27:08 GMT -5
there's a lot of backstory with the father and stuff which is all very interesting. Maybe it's me, but the tales of the parents seem like it should have gotten more focus. I figure that wasn't the goal of the devs, but leaving the ending they give as a positive is going to come crashing down in the harsh reality. Teens are teens, after all. I also deemed the game pretty hipstery at the time with its setting and characterizations (protagonist studying abroad for years; bit too "us 90s kids amiright?"; stuff like that), but "Life is Strange" REALLY put that into perspective. I mean, there's been issues with video game scripts growing too snarky and ironic if not downright meme-y, even in medival fantasy settings, but LiS' "hip" dialogue was beyond laughable at times.
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Post by 🧀Son of Suzy Creamcheese🧀 on Jun 9, 2016 1:40:35 GMT -5
I think that if a critic didn't find the game enthralling enough for the lack of gameplay, I don't see how that couldn't be a legit complaint. Now, if you just use 'it has no gameplay' as an argument in and of itself, that's different, of course. But if a critic is fine with the genre, and he still couldn't get over the lack of gameplay in a particular one, I don't see how that's not a valid point.
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Post by elektrolurch on Jun 9, 2016 3:36:44 GMT -5
You're thinking of it entirely from your own viewpoint, though, which is where you're missing the mark. A critic isn't here to tell you your own point of view, he's here to tell you his point of view. In the opinion of some critics, the lack of any traditional gameplay in a walking simulator is a problem, and it's absolutely valid for them to mention that in case other people out there would also have a problem with it, thereby saving them time and money on buying it. Well.... as you pointed out earlier, a critic should form an "informed opinion". Yes. And that's the thing, complaining about something you are not informed about is missing the point. and complaining for a game which is designed to have no traditional gameplay to complain about it is missing the point. I'm not thinking about my own viewpoint, I'm thinking about professional journalism. That's why I took the food critic example. Personally not liking spicy food is legit, but publically criticizing traditional spicy food for being spicy is not. Aigan, it's fine if you as a person don't like scary movies. But as a critic, complaining about a new horror movie for being too scary is bullcr*p....
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Post by kaoru on Jun 9, 2016 4:53:30 GMT -5
I mean, there's been issues with video game scripts growing too snarky and ironic if not downright meme-y, even in medival fantasy settings, but LiS' "hip" dialogue was beyond laughable at times. LiS is about a bunch of hipster-teens on an art(?) school that try to be all cool and edgy. It's pretty spot on that their dialogue is rather cringy and awkward
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