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Post by GamerL on Jan 15, 2018 16:55:10 GMT -5
I can't disagree more about the sales, really - original Max Payne sold somewhere between 1.5 and 2 million copies during five years, while Max Payne 3 sold somewhere around 4 million copies during one year, which not only makes for a pretty impressive number even for an AAA game (it's more than original Mass Effect, and not that far from Assassins Creed range of sales), but technically makes Max Payne 3 the most commercially successful entry in the series. Though again, I'm not talking about the sales as much as about the intent of developers - the thing about Max Payne 3 is that it was designed as a final installment, tying all the loose ends together, and while endings to the first two games were somewhat ambiguous in terms of "what will Payne do next after all that stuff", the closer to MP3 is written in such a way that it would be very problematic to come up with a good sequel. The question is, can you consider it a "dead franchise" if developers didn't want to keep it running in the first place? Creators of the game did what they wanted with the story, all the questions were answered, reputation of the series wasn't tarnished in any way, and everybody was satisfied with how things concluded. To me, "dead franchise" is the franchise that was abandoned without reaching its full potential or fulfilling its purpose; Max Payne, on the other hand, is a franchise that did everything developers (both from Remedy and Rockstar) wanted it to do, so it's more like "completed franchise" to me. Rockstar are one of the few developers left that do what they want and aren't so beholden to the almighty dollar, since they've already made so much cash. Max Payne 3 was probably a decent hit for them, but they probably feel like they've said all they wanted to say with Max Payne, it's just not "interesting" to them so they probably won't make a fourth, never mind that the number crunchers would say "if the last one was a hit, you have to make another" Look at Grand Theft Auto, this year it'll have been 5 years since V and there certainly won't be a 6th game this since RDR2 is the big Rockstar title for 2018, so who knows when there would be another GTA, probably not for years and the point is that'll be the longest gap in between entries, someone like EA would never allow that much time go between entries in a cash cow like GTA (though in fairness GTA Online is still pulling in cash, so it's like there's a huge incentive to make a follow up yet) And about RDR2, it's coming 8 years after the first, that's a pretty long time for a game as big a hit as the the first RDR, any other dev would not have taken that long but Rockstar takes it's time and focuses on projects they feel passionate about. I think Cyan is done with Myst after calling the last one 'End of Ages' and releasing Obduction now. Is Myst the only long running, well known franchise to finish and presumably stay finished forever? You'd think the devs would make a Myst 6 instead of Obduction for the name recognition but no, they stuck to their guns instead, I respect that.
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Post by Bumpyroad on Jan 15, 2018 18:32:09 GMT -5
And about RDR2, it's coming 8 years after the first, that's a pretty long time for a game as big a hit as the the first RDR, any other dev would not have taken that long but Rockstar takes it's time and focuses on projects they feel passionate about. Blizzard and Epic incorporate the same mentality, companies that usually develop and self-publish their games. Id Software, Polyphony Digital and Kojima Productions perhaps are more publisher dependant and their products tend to come out with varying results, but they're often not in the competition, take their time and quite passionate about it.
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Post by dsparil on Jan 15, 2018 18:52:49 GMT -5
Take 2, the parent company, did describe the sales of Max Payne 3 as lower than expected at one point and a factor in a $100m loss they had during its release quarter. They apparently shipped 3m copies but only sold half a million in the first month. Take 2 later said that they shipped 4m total but how much of that is channel stuffing to boost numbers is unknowable. The only number I saw for the original was 3.5m for the PS2 version but that is low quality information.
I prefer to use official numbers from financial filing since it's illegal to lie or be misleading in them, but Take 2 doesn't seem to include this info in their filings. Most companies love to call shipped copies as sold copies so that tends to clear that up even if you have to hunt a bit. Nintendo is the gold standard here since they actually give a simple table of actual sales denominated in thousands.
Basically, what I'm getting at is that it could conceivably have sold 4m and still be a financial failure cf. Dead Space 3. $105m gets tossed around as the rumored budget along with 4m in sales to break even. The movie got released in '08 and did reasonable well for a mid-budget movie ($85m gross on a budget of $35m). If MP3 had been released on time in '09, that conceivable could have been a restart of the series. Instead, it got delayed 3 years, probably went massively overbudget and was not considered successful by the publisher. Seemingly every single Rockstar studio was involved at some point judging by the credits. That something people actually like got released is immaterial.
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Post by Bumpyroad on Jan 16, 2018 2:17:10 GMT -5
It's been around 10 years from the last Time Crisis release and nearly 20 for Battle Arena Toshinden. Anyone still waiting for those?
Since remakes are not very popular among 2D shmups, it'd be naive to expect anything new from the Gigawing, Strikers, Cho Aniki, Sengoku Ace, Shikigami no Shiro, Thunder Force and the likes at this point imo.
Hudson Soft has since been merged with Konami, so chances for a new Bonk or Star Soldier entries are pretty slim i reckon too.
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Post by Woody Alien on Jan 30, 2018 19:15:46 GMT -5
In my article on Beast Busters I mentioned how they tried to revive the property three times but always failed (pretty humorous for a game with zombies), now that the mobile game has been removed it seems to be gone for good. Not that other light gun franchises are better these days, is anyone of them still around?
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Post by GamerL on Jan 30, 2018 19:24:01 GMT -5
In my article on Beast Busters I mentioned how they tried to revive the property three times but always failed (pretty humorous for a game with zombies), now that the mobile game has been removed it seems to be gone for good. Not that other light gun franchises are better these days, is anyone of them still around? Sega recently announced a new House of The Dead.
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Post by acidonia on Jan 30, 2018 19:28:16 GMT -5
Time Crisis 5 is fairly new though but it is arcade only and never left japan though. I was Surprised they was a Lethal Enforcers 3 for Japanese arcade though. I wish Sega would do a PC or switch collection of all the House of the Dead games only 4 and its Japanese only spin off never had PC ports. Not Including the not fully finished new game in the series.
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Post by ZenithianHero on Jan 30, 2018 19:46:33 GMT -5
It's been around 10 years from the last Time Crisis release and nearly 20 for Battle Arena Toshinden. Anyone still waiting for those? Since remakes are not very popular among 2D shmups, it'd be naive to expect anything new from the Gigawing, Strikers, Cho Aniki, Sengoku Ace, Shikigami no Shiro, Thunder Force and the likes at this point imo. Hudson Soft has since been merged with Konami, so chances for a new Bonk or Star Soldier entries are pretty slim i reckon too. Actually Toshinden had a reboot on Wii although so removed from the original games it should not really count. I gotta say there's series I never thought would return but it is because there's revived companies out and about. Take City Connection for example. That company is reviving Jaleco's backlog in good taste for a while now. When the last time we saw Jaleco in relevance? That's awesome.
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Post by Owlman on Jan 31, 2018 6:01:47 GMT -5
Take 2, the parent company, did describe the sales of Max Payne 3 as lower than expected at one point and a factor in a $100m loss they had during its release quarter. They apparently shipped 3m copies but only sold half a million in the first month. Take 2 later said that they shipped 4m total but how much of that is channel stuffing to boost numbers is unknowable. The only number I saw for the original was 3.5m for the PS2 version but that is low quality information. I prefer to use official numbers from financial filing since it's illegal to lie or be misleading in them, but Take 2 doesn't seem to include this info in their filings. Most companies love to call shipped copies as sold copies so that tends to clear that up even if you have to hunt a bit. Nintendo is the gold standard here since they actually give a simple table of actual sales denominated in thousands. Basically, what I'm getting at is that it could conceivably have sold 4m and still be a financial failure cf. Dead Space 3. $105m gets tossed around as the rumored budget along with 4m in sales to break even. The movie got released in '08 and did reasonable well for a mid-budget movie ($85m gross on a budget of $35m). If MP3 had been released on time in '09, that conceivable could have been a restart of the series. Instead, it got delayed 3 years, probably went massively overbudget and was not considered successful by the publisher. Seemingly every single Rockstar studio was involved at some point judging by the credits. That something people actually like got released is immaterial. It's worth noting that some companies - notably EA - call everything that doesn't make their shareholders a billion a "failure" or "disappointing". Not that there won't be some actual failures, but I'm careful around those numbers.
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Post by dsparil on Jan 31, 2018 7:46:42 GMT -5
Take 2, the parent company, did describe the sales of Max Payne 3 as lower than expected at one point and a factor in a $100m loss they had during its release quarter. They apparently shipped 3m copies but only sold half a million in the first month. Take 2 later said that they shipped 4m total but how much of that is channel stuffing to boost numbers is unknowable. The only number I saw for the original was 3.5m for the PS2 version but that is low quality information. I prefer to use official numbers from financial filing since it's illegal to lie or be misleading in them, but Take 2 doesn't seem to include this info in their filings. Most companies love to call shipped copies as sold copies so that tends to clear that up even if you have to hunt a bit. Nintendo is the gold standard here since they actually give a simple table of actual sales denominated in thousands. Basically, what I'm getting at is that it could conceivably have sold 4m and still be a financial failure cf. Dead Space 3. $105m gets tossed around as the rumored budget along with 4m in sales to break even. The movie got released in '08 and did reasonable well for a mid-budget movie ($85m gross on a budget of $35m). If MP3 had been released on time in '09, that conceivable could have been a restart of the series. Instead, it got delayed 3 years, probably went massively overbudget and was not considered successful by the publisher. Seemingly every single Rockstar studio was involved at some point judging by the credits. That something people actually like got released is immaterial. It's worth noting that some companies - notably EA - call everything that doesn't make their shareholders a billion a "failure" or "disappointing". Not that there won't be some actual failures, but I'm careful around those numbers. When I said failure, I meant that it lost money not that it didn't perform to expectations. With Dead Space 3, I'm pretty sure one of the pieces of info around Visceral's closing was that DS3 actually lost money despite selling a few million. With Max Payne 3, it's a little murkier since the 4 million break even point is conjecture based on rumor. Take 2 hasn't made a peep about number in over 4 years, so it realistically could have been a money loser.
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Post by toei on Jan 31, 2018 7:53:16 GMT -5
Zenithian - I looked into the Wii Toshinden and some people claimed it wasn't actually connected at all, that it was spelled out with different kanji or something. Do you know the story behind that? I know it wasn't developed by Tamsoft - it was actually Dream Factory's last game. I'd like to try it for that reason alone. Other than that, Toshinden was always a terrible series.
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Post by GamerL on Jan 31, 2018 7:54:49 GMT -5
It's still hard to believe a franchise as fairly recent and as big as Dead Space is probably.... dead.
In fact I would say, was that the first 7th gen franchise to peter out?
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Post by ZenithianHero on Jan 31, 2018 18:09:28 GMT -5
Zenithian - I looked into the Wii Toshinden and some people claimed it wasn't actually connected at all, that it was spelled out with different kanji or something. Do you know the story behind that? I know it wasn't developed by Tamsoft - it was actually Dream Factory's last game. I'd like to try it for that reason alone. Other than that, Toshinden was always a terrible series. It's the same publisher (Takara, now under the merger Takara Tomy) it is too much of a coincidence. I didn't like Toshinden 1 too much, aged poorly. But that Game Boy game was solid.
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Post by alphex on Jan 31, 2018 20:16:42 GMT -5
Didn't Tamsoft already develop Toshinden 4, anyway?
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Post by toei on Jan 31, 2018 20:32:36 GMT -5
Yeah, but that was on the PSX. I don't really see what you mean.
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