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Post by ahnslaught on Jan 28, 2007 8:08:38 GMT -5
Sorry to derail the thread, but I really think zzz brings up a great point about fighters needing simpler controls. As a matter of fact, I would go even further and say that fighters need not only simpler controls, but simpler gameplay overall. As much as I like trying to get into difficult fighters like VF and Soul Calibur (and I love those games, no matter how crappy I am at them - serious works of art IMO), it really does need to get simpler for the genre to get any bigger and draw in more players.
As it stands now, fighting games are some of the most complicated games out there, and the best ones have a monumental learning curve before you get proficient at the game. They require tons of memorization and technique that just doesn't really make it fun for people unless they are of similar skill levels. In any other case, either the less experienced will get their ass kicked and get frustrated at the game, or the more experienced player's going to get bored teaching the game to the other individual. Yes, this sounds like a complaint in any other multiplayer game, but in fighters, it's strictly one-on-one, so the frustration level really builds up very quickly.
In shooters, for example, anyone can get into deathmatch and have fun. Sure, they'll get killed a bunch, but they'll get kills as well, and more importantly, they'll learn the maps naturally as a result of playing the game, and your aiming gets better little by little. Unlike fighters, there are no weird button combos to memorize, and no need to train to even get competent at the game. There's no huge learning curve for you to even access the game.
I don't know how fighters solve this problem, but I think some kind of major innovation is required for it to become popular (at least outside of Japan) and make it accessible to newcomers as well as fun for veterans.
Oh well, I suppose over 15 years of evolution on the SF2 theme will result in this. I'm concerned, though, that fighters will go the way of the 2d shooter by only catering to the veterans and constantly trying to deepen the ezisting gameplay...or are they already there?
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Post by michiyoyoshiku on Jan 28, 2007 14:35:38 GMT -5
What about the Naruto Ninja Taisen series? Doesn't get simpler than that and those games are awesome though panned by critics (at least those raitings obsessed XPlay snobs anyway)
I am a Fan of Naruto but when I first got the game I was not I didn't really even have an interest in the show same with the PSP Bleach fighters which aren't the same. Now I'm a naruto fan not so much a fan of Bleach but I like the turn off your brain gameplay of both. multiplayer gets insane in the naruto games too.
Both games were made by the same developer.
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Post by Shinigami on Jan 28, 2007 15:13:27 GMT -5
I would say SNK got it right with Garou. The game is fairly easy to pick up, the characters are well balanced, and it's just a lot of fun to play. However it's not my favorite. There are only a total of 14 characters in the game. I want more characters. After playing this game I thought the smooth animation and gameplay would transfer over to KOF, which is what I always felt KOF really needed. I haven't played KOF XI yet so I don't know if that game has managed to capture the greatness of Garou.
As for every fighting game playing like DOA or Super Smash Brothers, I disagree. Unless the game involves swords, I need at least two punches and two kicks. It's actually less brain work when you think about it. Top ones are punches, bottom ones are kicks, the more you move to the right, the stronger the attack becomes. And this template travels easily from one fighting game to another.
The problem fighting games have with newcomers is that they don't offer any kind of learning mode. Unless you have someone teaching you, you're very likely to give up. Practice/Training modes are no help since they are there mainly for practicing combos. The Street Fighting EX series is the only series that comes close to having a training mode that helps newcomers, but even then you pretty much have to already know how to do a smooth rolling motion.
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Post by munchy on Jan 28, 2007 17:39:09 GMT -5
I recognize a lot of Garou's elements and players in KoF 2003, which I also really like.
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Vaccy
New Member
Posts: 29
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Post by Vaccy on Jan 28, 2007 22:02:44 GMT -5
Sorry to derail the thread, but I really think zzz brings up a great point about fighters needing simpler controls. As a matter of fact, I would go even further and say that fighters need not only simpler controls, but simpler gameplay overall. As much as I like trying to get into difficult fighters like VF and Soul Calibur (and I love those games, no matter how crappy I am at them - serious works of art IMO), it really does need to get simpler for the genre to get any bigger and draw in more players. As it stands now, fighting games are some of the most complicated games out there, and the best ones have a monumental learning curve before you get proficient at the game. They require tons of memorization and technique that just doesn't really make it fun for people unless they are of similar skill levels. In any other case, either the less experienced will get their ass kicked and get frustrated at the game, or the more experienced player's going to get bored teaching the game to the other individual. Yes, this sounds like a complaint in any other multiplayer game, but in fighters, it's strictly one-on-one, so the frustration level really builds up very quickly. In shooters, for example, anyone can get into deathmatch and have fun. Sure, they'll get killed a bunch, but they'll get kills as well, and more importantly, they'll learn the maps naturally as a result of playing the game, and your aiming gets better little by little. Unlike fighters, there are no weird button combos to memorize, and no need to train to even get competent at the game. There's no huge learning curve for you to even access the game. I don't know how fighters solve this problem, but I think some kind of major innovation is required for it to become popular (at least outside of Japan) and make it accessible to newcomers as well as fun for veterans. Oh well, I suppose over 15 years of evolution on the SF2 theme will result in this. I'm concerned, though, that fighters will go the way of the 2d shooter by only catering to the veterans and constantly trying to deepen the ezisting gameplay...or are they already there? I see what you mean, but I vote nay on simple controls. What i'd like to see is more online gaming. It's suprising, as I almost never play anything online, but with a fighting game, the entire idea is playing against someone, so the single player mode really can't be fucked with (Which always bugs me in other genres where it seems like a game is multiplayer with a shitty single player game tacked on). The great thing about going online for a match is that someone is always ready to play, and everyone is on a different skill level. Oh, and 3rd Strike would be my favorite.
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Post by zzz on Jan 29, 2007 0:48:09 GMT -5
I said control like Smash Bros. and DOA, not play like those games. They should all be simplified control wise and only involve direction tapping and button tapping to do moves. The two most complex genres are arguably fighting and strategy. Imagine if you had to do a 720 on the controler to deploy troops, or whatever, in a strategy game. What would the point of making players do that be?
On a lighter note: the solution to all this? Somebody needs to make Yie Ar Kung Fu trilogy vs. Joy Mech Fight in MUGEN.
BEST. FIGHTER. EVAR.
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Post by kal on Jan 29, 2007 5:45:16 GMT -5
Imagine if you had to do a 720 on the controler to deploy troops, or whatever, in a strategy game. What would the point of making players do that be? You've just hit the number one reason why most fighting games drive me insane, I despise having to do three half circles a backwards z and a full three sixty to perform a special move that could just as easily be mapped to quater circle forward times two. It's why I love Asura Blade (and wish the second one was avaliable somewhere). All the moves are nice and simple and it succeeds in making the game have a much faster pace. I won't defy anyone who believes difficult to perform moves add to the fighter but they aren't my cup of tea.
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Post by zzz on Jan 29, 2007 7:28:22 GMT -5
It is worth noting that my comments have come from somebody who has probably played 200 fighting games. I am a veritable fanatic when it comes to this genre, so I am not complaining about fighting games or saying these controls make me less likely to play these games, just that they would probably control better without complex controler motions. Like I said, button tapping and direction tapping, if you ask me, would probably be best. If nothing else, you would be able to react faster.
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Post by ninjarygar on Jan 29, 2007 9:19:21 GMT -5
And then maybe I could perform Dizzy's Gamma Ray without doing the "Gamma Ray Dance".
The worst has to be Vampire Savior. I love that game to death, but most of the characters super moves are done with Shun goku satsu style commands.... and they're so hard to remember, since there are so many. I really wish they would have stuck with simpler commands.
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Post by michiyoyoshiku on Jan 29, 2007 9:34:44 GMT -5
It is worth noting that my comments have come from somebody who has probably played 200 fighting games. I am a veritable fanatic when it comes to this genre, so I am not complaining about fighting games or saying these controls make me less likely to play these games, just that they would probably control better without complex controler motions. Like I said, button tapping and direction tapping, if you ask me, would probably be best. If nothing else, you would be able to react faster. Trying doing it on a PSP actually with the modded Dpad moves are easy(er) to pull off
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