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Post by cj iwakura on Aug 5, 2019 9:58:11 GMT -5
Genuinely curious how you all feel about this. Short version: www.vice.com/en_us/article/paj7nv/twin-peaks-inspired-video-game-mizzurna-falls-localized-by-fansIt was even put on on RHDN. Except... the original hacker got upset and had it taken down because he didn't want the bugs associated with him. I feel Starplayer should be commended for helping the game see release rather than languishing in purgatory, but that's divisive to say the least. What do you all think? (I've personally played it and feel it's quite playable, if rough, which is a start, and how things see completion: testing.)
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Post by ommadawnyawn2 on Aug 5, 2019 10:47:54 GMT -5
I guess I'll wait a bit and see what happens. I've learned not to go waiting anxiously for these things to get finished.
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Post by kingmike on Aug 5, 2019 10:52:26 GMT -5
I feel Starplayer should be commended for helping the game see release rather than languishing in purgatory, but that's divisive to say the least. He took someone else's unfinished work and put it up online without actually finishing it. Letting someone else finish it was the entire point of the repository. Gemini responded something like if he wanted his work out and distributed as a patch in an unfinished state, he would've done it himself.
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Post by dsparil on Aug 5, 2019 13:25:07 GMT -5
So someone put code up on a site that requires* encourages public repositories to be under an open license then got mad when someone else used this code. A really perplexing response. What was even the point of putting it on GitHub? It'd be one thing if it was supposed to be private, you don't even need to pay for those anymore, but that doesn't seem to be the case. The guy just outright threw a hissy fit on the RHDN forum:
"The game isn't fully playable, it actually likes to crash quite a lot to a black screen. I didn't upload the sources for anyone to just compile them and slap an incomplete work together, I uploaded them so that someone could actually complete the thing and give the game the treatment that it deserves. Sorry but I don't like when people release stuff with my name on it in a horribly incomplete state, so I flagged the entry asking for it to be removed unless released in a complete state; I would have released that mess myself a long time ago otherwise."
Apparently software doesn't have a production cycle and is tirelessly made by pixies until completely perfect. God forbid, an alpha version of a translation patch was released; what an unprecedented occurrence! There are not enough eye roll emojis in the entire world for how dumb this situation is.
It's impossible to know what the license was originally since the repo is gone. GitHub allows unlicensed code now* which really shouldn't be touched at all since it opens you up to all kinds of liability as there are no usage rights given aside from the implication that you can look at it. I wouldn't even count on the implication to be honest. It's totally possible that the original author actually had no right to have the patch taken down, or maybe he didn't include a license and the code really should have been considered toxic waste.
* It's my recollection that GitHub required public repositories to have an explicit open source license but that seems to have changed possibly when Microsoft bought it last year. They really should default to the MIT license (do whatever you want, require credit) or even the "0 clause" BSD license (do whatever you want, don't require credit) if only to get people to actually think about how much control they want.
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Post by dsparil on Aug 6, 2019 7:04:39 GMT -5
His GitHub account is full of projects that have barely anything even resembling a readme. Some are unlicensed and others are GPLv2 or v3. It is exceedingly likely that "I uploaded them so that someone could actually complete the thing" was a concept that existed only in his head. If it was under the GPL, he had zero right to have the patch taken down or control the way the way the source is used outside of situations non-applicable here. It's perfectly within his rights to take his copy of the source down, but you can't interfere with derivatives that are complying with the license. It's also within his rights to relicense under something less permissive, but you can't just take your ball and go home for something already out there. I suppose that technically the patch might not have been in compliance since I doubt it included the modified source code, but that is a minor issue in this case and it did point to the original source. I also doubt that this hypothetical and fixable GPL violation was the grounds for having the patch taken down. cj iwakura: Do you have a copy of the source code or know someone that does? A little light on the exact terms would be helpful.
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Post by cj iwakura on Aug 6, 2019 8:11:47 GMT -5
I'm really not sure how this stuff works, but his claims just struck me as being petty at best.
Sadly most of the internet seems to take Gemini's side, including people I know and respect.
RHDN claims to be discussing it amongst their mods, but he has a lot of pull there.
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Post by ommadawnyawn2 on Aug 6, 2019 10:37:27 GMT -5
Drama alert: nerd edition
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Post by kingmike on Aug 6, 2019 11:54:48 GMT -5
It's considered politeness in the scene to ask the author before uploading a patch made with their work. Certainly when they still appear to be an active member of the scene.
The couple I didn't do that on where a couple of pre-patched ROM translations I found in ROM sets, which I made patches from. That was because they credited to people I never heard of, and couldn't find a website for, so I was guessing they didn't have any contact.
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Post by cj iwakura on Aug 6, 2019 22:22:13 GMT -5
Sadly most of the internet seems to take Gemini's side, including people I know and respect. Why "sadly"? Does the internet have to conform to your opinion? Technically, dsparil is likely right when it comes to GitHub. However, that matters very little. RHDN can host and list whatever they want, so that's not something one can complain about. And like I said, it all depends on what the repository said. Considering Gemini wrote: "[...]I uploaded them so that someone could actually complete the thing...", people are, of course, going to assume that it was mentioned somewhere, especially because he is a well-respected member of the community. To be blunt? Gemini has always had this 'I'm the shit and I know it' attitude, and I find it more than a little grating. It comes across in all his remarks, and god help you should you stand in the way of his glorious hacking skills.
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Post by cj iwakura on Aug 6, 2019 23:06:20 GMT -5
To be blunt? Gemini has always had this 'I'm the shit and I know it' attitude, and I find it more than a little grating. It comes across in all his remarks, and god help you should you stand in the way of his glorious hacking skills. Gotta keep those issues separate. Even someone you don't like can have a valid case, despite his manner of communication. Personally, I have no dog in the race and rely solely on facts. Unfortunately, there are no facts to find here, so all we can do is shrug. As you said, starplayer might have had the best intentions. If there wasn't any info in the repository, there was nothing wrong with what he did and he does indeed deserve commendation. But again, no facts to base anything on. If you feel really bad for him, send him a PM, ask him about whether there was any info. If there was, try to make him understand and give him credit. If there wasn't, try to cheer him up and give him credit. If he doesn't remember, try to cheer him up anyway and give him credit. I'm more of an observer, so I prefer to not get involved, but considering you are feeling more strongly about it, you certainly can. I'm already working with Starplayer personally, which only furthers my opinion of his efforts. He genuinely just loves the game and wanted it to reach more people, whereas Gemini only cares about his precious reputation.
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Post by Ace Whatever on Aug 7, 2019 5:44:24 GMT -5
Without intimate knowledge of Gemini's history and attitude, it's hard to be mad at him for not wanting a buggy patch to be released into the wild. The fact that he had the work up on a public repository at least means he wasn't intending on holding the translation hostage.
Anyway personal feelings and intentions aside the good news is that this kerfuffle attracted the attention of someone willing to work on fixing the patch.
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Post by starscream on Aug 7, 2019 9:59:28 GMT -5
I guess it's good thing that nobody can dispute that the translation isn't fiinshed. Imagine if some additional work was done and the original hacker would insist it's not up to his standards.
Speaking of of unfinished translations, I'm pretty sure I've got The 4th Unit for X68K somewhere, I don't quite remember from who I got that from. Possibly you CJ? I think this was Esperknights's hacking work.
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Post by cj iwakura on Aug 7, 2019 10:08:30 GMT -5
I guess it's good thing that nobody can dispute that the translation isn't fiinshed. Imagine if some additional work was done and the original hacker would insist it's not up to his standards. Speaking of of unfinished translations, I'm pretty sure I've got The 4th Unit for X68K somewhere, I don't quite remember from who I got that from. Possibly you CJ? I think this was Esperknights's hacking work. Yep, probably. And yeah, I edited and he hacked it.
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Post by starscream on Aug 8, 2019 7:19:13 GMT -5
Any idea if that's going to be "officially" released at some point? Seems Esperknight hasn't been putting out stuff for a while.
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Post by cj iwakura on Aug 8, 2019 12:34:28 GMT -5
Any idea if that's going to be "officially" released at some point? Seems Esperknight hasn't been putting out stuff for a while. I've been bugging him about it, lol. He's mostly working on Moon right now, since it's ramping up. I really think he could finish 4th Unit within a day of work.
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