Game Storage Help

[savagepencil]

Kurt's right on this. You tried to equate a film (let's be charitable and go with 4 hours entertainment, that includes commentary and people flubbing their lines "hilariously") to a 10+ hour game. So you've got $5/hour of entertainment there. Now let's compare that to FF12 at $60. That was a very poor example for you to select. You're probably talking less than $1/hour of entertainment before you beat it.

Now, back in the day, when I was buying $40 and $50 new games in the 80s and early 90s, I was paying for new technology and the hardware. And damn did I make sure I got my money's worth out of those games.

As for poor kids in other countries, first off you're a dick for trying to equate your pitiful situation to theirs, and secondly there are outlets for them. Look at how cheaply Tec-Toy legally got Master System games out (although I'm sure there were quite a few gray areas there). See how Nintendo is offering N64 games to the Chinese now.

In any event, making a plea and exploiting poor kids to somehow justify your weenie excuse is bad form. Maybe next you should complain how you are oh-so-poor; bonus points if you could figure out a way to play a race card.

In the end, I pay for my games because I respect the people who make them, and want to promote that. If you're not doing that, you're only hurting what you purport to love.

[Shellshock]

kain said:

Sh3llshock, you use phrases like "paid my dues" which indicate that there is a definite air of entitlement in your postings as you defend your stance on piracy as if corporate America has somehow not met your standards of pricing, and so you (and others like you - youraveragejoe) see it fit to take matters into your own hands.

The effects of people with your mindset have had definite ill effects on the industry... from the recent increase in the development of subscription-based games (MMOs), to a focus on mass-market games aimed at "Joe Walmart" for the purpose of getting a suitable return on investment, to the intermittent controversies with anti-piracy measures such as root kits, Starforce, and inconveniences with Steam. The industry will adjust, and it will find ways to co-exist with the inevitability of piracy, but the form that this industry will take to survive is not neccesarily the form that we, as hardcore gamers, would find optimal. As savagepencil said, games that appeal only to the hardcore are a losing proposition from the business side because hardcore gamers tend to be tech-savvy individuals with likely connections to piracy distribution channels. It is much safer to make a crappy game based on a license than an original game because the bulk of the industry is supported by impulse gamers that are more likely to contribute to the purchase numbers than hardcore gamers... with the Madden series being the prime example of this.

Anyway, I don't expect you to change your ways from posts like this one, as I'm sure you're used to this sort of attack all the time when people in the industry find out that you feel justified in your piracy habits. I'm mainly chiming in on this thread in the hopes of reaching out to the others on the fence who see the folly in turning piracy into some kind of us-versus-them situation. There are plenty of games out there. You won't be able to play them all. That's just fact. If you find yourself needing to pirate games in order to "keep up" with what's out there, then you're not really playing those games, you're just collecting them in a meaningless pile.

Hey Kain

I agree with most of what you say, although I don't see a direct relation between piracy and poor quality games for the masses. Yes, maybe corporations are losing some money because of it, but saying that that is the cause for them making more cartoon network games to make up for their loses doesn't convince me. If they suddenly dropped their prices just like the music industry did years after the whole Napster/pirating thing was assimilated, that would be a step forward.
I agree taking matters into our own hands is kinda scary and dangerous, and maybe (and just maybe) not the way to go, but neither the government or the corporations should tell us what stealing is. WE, as responsable thinking beings, should be able to make that decision. Governments and corporations all have some degree of corruption, so thinking of them as models for our life morals seems kind of stupid to me.
Alright, enough with politics. What I'm trying to say is we should all be responsable and know when to pirate something and when to purchase it at a fair price. FAIR PRICE. Not $50.
Besides, what's the harm in pirating a movie you would never go to see or buy anyways? It doesn't create any loses, does it?

There's no way I can keep up with games, I don't have the time or the money. I'm recently playing Devil May Cry 3 and just started Fatal Frame 2. I just play the best of them, so that's not my main worry.

Anyways, you got some good points, nice talking to you.

[savagepencil]

sh3llsh0ck said:

I agree taking matters into our own hands is kinda scary and dangerous, and maybe (and just maybe) not the way to go, but neither the government or the corporations should tell us what stealing is. WE, as responsable thinking beings, should be able to make that decision. Governments and corporations all have some degree of corruption, so thinking of them as models for our life morals seems kind of stupid to me.
Alright, enough with politics. What I'm trying to say is we should all be responsable and know when to pirate something and when to purchase it at a fair price. FAIR PRICE. Not $50.
Besides, what's the harm in pirating a movie you would never go to see or buy anyways? It doesn't create any loses, does it?

There's no way I can keep up with games, I don't have the time or the money. I'm recently playing Devil May Cry 3 and just started Fatal Frame 2. I just play the best of them, so that's not my main worry.

Anyways, you got some good points, nice talking to you.

AHAHAHHAA, holy crap dude. You have now gone through every feeble pirate's justification I can imagine. Do you think you're one of "the cyberpunks fighting for justice" from the intro to Snatcher? Next up: how the situationist movement made you realize the materialism of modern society was a farce? Have you been punching deck and cruising some black ICE lately?

You won't address the issue (I'm sorry, FACT) that most games do not make money. We have to sell our product at $50 to break even. It's not the publisher--or even the nebulous "government"--sticking their hands too far into the cookie jar. It just costs a lot to make these. And by pirating these games, you're just hurting us, the developers. You won't accept this for some reason. Because you "know".

[Shellshock]

savagepencil said:

I don't pay for gas that's over $2 a gallon. When it gets that high, that's when I start stealing it from my neighbor's truck.

Lol savage. Lots of trucks here in the country side!
Kidding aside, games are entertainment. Gas (if you live outside cities) is a necessity to continue your everyday life.
How about this: Would you steal food if you were homeless and starving? Or would you say: "No, stealing is wrong, I rather die"? My point is that not all stealing is wrong. No such thing as black or white, but tons of gray scales. And no person should tell you what's wrong or right, that's homework for your concience.
Humans (as it says in the bible, if you believe in it of course), will never be able to govern themselves and need higher guidance.

[kyouki]

sh3llsh0ck said:

And last but not least, what about kids in poor countries that can't afford to buy an original game because its price equals half their parents salary per month? Should they get to buy pirated games at a fraction of the original's price, or shouldn't they be playing at all if they can't afford it?

Video games aren't a necessity. The world is full of examples of people that can't afford everything they'd like. It's a tragedy that kids everywhere do not have access to excellent healthcare and education, do not live in safe neighborhoods, and do not get all the nutrition they need to grow up healthy. The fact that they can't play video games? Not even on the list.

If I was starving and needed food? Yeah, I'd probably steal the food. Do you honestly think there's any comparison between stealing food to survive and pirating a game because you just don't want to spend money on it?

The government should indeed decide what is and what isn't stealing. That's the whole point of governments. If you can't entrust a group of people who have been elected into office by their constituents to make laws then how do you suggest coexisting with millions of other people?

You keep going back to this "fair price" thing as though a "fair price" can be determined on a luxury good, completely divorced from the economics of the situation. Ok, they can sell games for $20 now but everyone on staff (including the 80 hour a week salaried programmers) now have to take a 50% pay cut. In effect you are arguing that game developers and programmers and artists make too much money.

Seriously, pirate all the games you want. But at least be a man enough to say "I pirate games because I don't care about the industry or the people that work within in, but I still feel entitled to enjoy the products of that industry." Don't try to justify it with this nonsense about how you're sticking it to the corporations, or all the money goes to the fat cat executives, or games should be free for all to enjoy (even the poor children!), or games only cost 5 cents to make or whatever.

[chewy]

That's stupid man. You can't say "If you were homeless..." blah blah blah to justify stealing a video game! Do you download music too?

[Shellshock]

savagepencil said:

Kurt's right on this. You tried to equate a film (let's be charitable and go with 4 hours entertainment, that includes commentary and people flubbing their lines "hilariously") to a 10+ hour game. So you've got $5/hour of entertainment there. Now let's compare that to FF12 at $60. That was a very poor example for you to select. You're probably talking less than $1/hour of entertainment before you beat it.

Now, back in the day, when I was buying $40 and $50 new games in the 80s and early 90s, I was paying for new technology and the hardware. And damn did I make sure I got my money's worth out of those games.

As for poor kids in other countries, first off you're a dick for trying to equate your pitiful situation to theirs, and secondly there are outlets for them. Look at how cheaply Tec-Toy legally got Master System games out (although I'm sure there were quite a few gray areas there). See how Nintendo is offering N64 games to the Chinese now.

In any event, making a plea and exploiting poor kids to somehow justify your weenie excuse is bad form. Maybe next you should complain how you are oh-so-poor; bonus points if you could figure out a way to play a race card.

In the end, I pay for my games because I respect the people who make them, and want to promote that. If you're not doing that, you're only hurting what you purport to love.

Hey savage,

First off, please let's keep insults out. I know you are involved in game development and this subject hits you hard, but I really don't know much about you other than that.
You guys have a point with comparing the entertainment time between movies and games. I never thought of that.
As for me, yes, I'm very proudly gonna play the "race card" (I'm latin). I'm also gonna play the "poor kid raised in poor country card", I was born in Argentina and lived all my life there. I remember my Battletoads pirated copy costed me $52 (that's US dollars) when I first got my Famicom clone, so do the math to figure out how much an original american NES cart was. Back then my mom's salary as a teacher was $500 a month. So nowadays I know exactly what a fair price for me is. I'm sure you didn't know about my background, so I won't take offense on what you said.
I did feel more comfortable paying higher prices for cartridges though. For obvious cost reasons.

[Discoalucard]

And you can't really lob "governments" and "corporations" as being huge entities than encompass nothing but evil. I won't debate there's a lot of shifty goings-ons in a lot of places, but a lot of regular people earn their livings working for these - you're damning a lot of people by presuming that the money spent on these products is going straight towards crooks.

[Shellshock]

kyouki said:

If I was starving and needed food? Yeah, I'd probably steal the food. Do you honestly think there's any comparison between stealing food to survive and pirating a game because you just don't want to spend money on it?

No, not at all. I was just comparing it to Savagepencil's statement.

[kyouki]

sh3llsh0ck said:

Hey savage,

First off, please let's keep insults out. I know you are involved in game development and this subject hits you hard, but I really don't know much about you other than that.
You guys have a point with comparing the entertainment time between movies and games. I never thought of that.
As for me, yes, I'm very proudly gonna play the "race card" (I'm latin). I'm also gonna play the "poor kid raised in poor country card", I was born in Argentina and lived all my life there. I remember my Battletoads pirated copy costed me $52 (that's US dollars) when I first got my Famicom clone, so do the math to figure out how much an original american NES cart was. Back then my mom's salary as a teacher was $500 a month. So nowadays I know exactly what a fair price for me is. I'm sure you didn't know about my background, so I won't take offense on what you said.
I did feel more comfortable paying higher prices for cartridges though. For obvious cost reasons.

Ok, maybe your mom wants to make more money, right? So she and a few of her teacher friends start a private school. They charge enough so that she now makes $1000 a month! She's making twice as much as she used to! But surely that isn't fair to the kids who can't afford private school, right? I mean, those kids should be able to go to your mom's school for free, since they can't afford it. Maybe she could work an extra 10 hours a week for the same pay? Or maybe she could take a pay cut and the private school could just subsidize the cost for the poor children?

[Shellshock]

kyouki said:

sh3llsh0ck said:

Hey savage,

First off, please let's keep insults out. I know you are involved in game development and this subject hits you hard, but I really don't know much about you other than that.
You guys have a point with comparing the entertainment time between movies and games. I never thought of that.
As for me, yes, I'm very proudly gonna play the "race card" (I'm latin). I'm also gonna play the "poor kid raised in poor country card", I was born in Argentina and lived all my life there. I remember my Battletoads pirated copy costed me $52 (that's US dollars) when I first got my Famicom clone, so do the math to figure out how much an original american NES cart was. Back then my mom's salary as a teacher was $500 a month. So nowadays I know exactly what a fair price for me is. I'm sure you didn't know about my background, so I won't take offense on what you said.
I did feel more comfortable paying higher prices for cartridges though. For obvious cost reasons.

Ok, maybe your mom wants to make more money, right? So she and a few of her teacher friends start a private school. They charge enough so that she now makes $1000 a month! She's making twice as much as she used to! But surely that isn't fair to the kids who can't afford private school, right? I mean, those kids should be able to go to your mom's school for free, since they can't afford it. Maybe she could work an extra 10 hours a week for the same pay? Or maybe she could take a pay cut and the private school could just subsidize the cost for the poor children?

Yes, the kids should be getting education for free in the first place. It's in our Constitution. That's why 95% of our schools and universities are free, because only a small part of the population can afford private schools. The government pays the teachers, who make half what my mom makes (nowadays she makes the equivalent to 300 american dollars a month).
Kyoki I see your point and I completely agree with it, but education is a bad example because it's mostly free in my home country.

[Shellshock]

admin said:

And you can't really lob "governments" and "corporations" as being huge entities than encompass nothing but evil. I won't debate there's a lot of shifty goings-ons in a lot of places, but a lot of regular people earn their livings working for these - you're damning a lot of people by presuming that the money spent on these products is going straight towards crooks.

Yes Kurt, I am generalizing a lot maybe. I apologize (specially to savagepencil). But hey, this turned too much into politics.
My case is very different than all of you americans, so I don't expect you to even bother to put yourselves in my shoes.
Anyways, this is my final post, we'll never get to agree. Although I learned some stuff.

Keep up the good work.

[savagepencil]

You "learned some stuff"? But yet you'll have to agree to disagree...that stealing hurts game developers. OK, I don't really see what you learned. But you've fled the thread, so who cares, right?

I am currently, in my spare time, working on a game engine to allow non-programmers to actually get something done. It will allow people to do art installations and to make virtually any type of 2D title. The idea is that it's all run from a single executable, and that users simply provide scripts and game assets. Right now I'm torn on the pricing scheme, if any. But when people feel entitled to steal what amounts to a lot of work (a fully data-driven, high performance 2D game engine), is it even worth releasing it?

[YourAverageJoe]

I'll just go on a whim and say that Shellshock lives in a poor country. Generally as the country and its population get poorer, the more common piracy gets, and the easier it gets to justify it. That being said, I have a different problem: Most of the games I want to pay for don't get here at all (see: the Megaman Collections, Onimusha Blade Warriors, most of the Tales of series, etc.), so my justification is this: the corporation simply decided not to profit from selling its product, and even with the thousands of import gamers, they still don't see how the product could sell here, so I'll just get the game from another source.

[savagepencil]

That's weird because his website is registered to him in Florida.