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Post by Discoalucard on Feb 21, 2007 16:09:03 GMT -5
Articles' done: www.hardcoregaming101.net/panzerdragoon/panzerdragoon.htmVarious musing below: For some reason, I never really got into Panzer Dragoon. I wasn't into console games at the time the Saturn was conceived. Panzer Dragoon Zwei was one of the first games I bought when I did buy a Saturn, and it didn't really take. Ditto with Orta - first Xbox game I bought, I got to like the third stage and just never picked it up again. But I've had a fascination with the recent Sega Ages releases, so I got the PS2 Panzer Dragoon package cheap. And for some reason, this time, it all clicked. I went back and played through Orta and ended up really enjoying it. There are still some misgivings I have about it though. They all feel like arcade games that never appeared in the arcades. Makes sense, considering this is Sega we're talking about. I guess the biggest is that the action seems too busy. You need to be conscious of things happening in all directions, and sometimes it's just too too much. Especially when you can see enemies on the radar, and you know they're around, but you're too busy shifting the viewpoint to try to find them, and by the time you do, they've already landed some hits. And plus - dodging. It seems like the camera is constantly pulling you along, back and forth, making it hard to actually avoid certain things. It's been awhile since I played Rez, but I'm pretty sure all you needed to do to avoid being hit was to shoot down the projectiles before they hit you, like a light gun game. You can do this with some projectiles in Panzer Dragoon, but not all of them. I think. Am I playing the game right? So as a result, I kinda of end up sucking at the games. Plus, it seems like a lot of levels are built around memorization, so you can only REALLY do well if you know exactly how the camera is going to pan, and know exactly where the enemies are. But it's not like R-Type where you're forced to play things over until you get it right - you take some hits, and move on. The only time you try again is if you get a Game Over and need to start the stage from scratch. Which gets tedious, because the levels are at least five minutes long. Orta is much better about this. It'll start you at boss battles if you die, which gives you a much better changes to figure out their patterns. Hell, Orta in general seems to be the best of the three main games. 60 FPS? Gorgeous, not super pixellated graphics that actually show off how amazing the world and enemy designs are? So let's talk about this. Does anyone here who has an Xbox NOT own Orta? Because it's like $10 and you should buy it definitely. Also, we can talk about Saga, I guess. I started playing it again last night. Like a lot of the $100+ RPGs from the era (including Suikoden 2 and Valkyrie Profile), it's not nearly as good as its reputation would lead you to believe. It's still creative, though, especially the battle system.
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Post by vysethebold on Feb 21, 2007 16:22:49 GMT -5
I own them all except for Zwei and am a huge fan of the series and Rez as well. Avoiding being shot mostly lies in shooting the enemy before they shoot you. It's more of a preventative thing with these games. In Orta you have to know when to use your different forms most effectively when you play. It doesn't require as much memorizing as you'd think, you just need to get used to the feel of where enemies will pop up. I know that isn't a really definitive way of talking about where the enemies will pop up but there does seem to be a rhyme and reason to it so after a while you can get it. Saga is amazing by the way mainly in terms of how long it is and its unique battle system.
PS- I also have the soundtrack to Orta if you are looking for it.
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terranigma
Junior Member
World Resurrector
Posts: 65
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Post by terranigma on Feb 21, 2007 16:42:40 GMT -5
I'm a big fan of the Panzer series, but I'm also not that great at them. I love Orta, but I haven't had the chance to play Saga yet. On a side note, back in the day I would frequent my local Toys R' Us a few times a week looking for deals on games. For some reason nobody bought games at this Toys R' Us, so they were always discounting stuff. I remember back in the final days of the Saturn they had 10 copies of Saga for $19.95 each. I told myself, "I'll pick one up in a couple days, nobody's going to buy them". Well, I still kick myself in the ass to this day, cause when I went back. . . .all gone
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Post by neomerge on Feb 21, 2007 18:07:22 GMT -5
holy crap dude i hate when shit like that happens ^^
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Post by dartagnan1803 on Feb 21, 2007 18:07:55 GMT -5
Saga is still nice if you're not expecting anything life changing.
Panzer 1 never clicked with me. It was always about the later titles in the series as far as I'm concerned.
Kurt; Yeah, the dodging mechanics need work. While you CAN shoot some shots out of the sky, the others are meant to be maneuvered around (which doesn't work with anything appart from the standard view). While I'm sure you caught this, I'm treating as a 'just-in-case'
What vyse said is pretty relevant, as you can always use the radar to figure out where enemies are. The games will only rarely put you in a situation where obstacle dodging coincides with shooting anywhere but forwards.
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Post by bioniccommando83 on Feb 21, 2007 18:29:51 GMT -5
I've played through Saga twice on my brother's Saturn and really loved it- though I also cannot recall ever earning a game over, even on a couple of the tougher boss battles. My main complaints are the game is short, and given the scope of the game, it seems like you'd be able to do a lot more with the various areas and such but you never do. Never the less, I still rate it rather highly among the RPGs I've played.
I had the chance to play the original and Zwei but never did. This past December I was visiting my brother who picked up Orta for his Xbox. Very fun, pretty, and oh-so-damn hard as hell. We made it through to the first boss okay, but got completely reemed by him despite repeated tries. I never stuck with it long enough to pick out and master the controls, but dodging came across as really hard, especially in the underground segment of level one. The radar was useful, but it was usually one of the last things I'd pay attention to.
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Post by Gilder on Feb 21, 2007 19:42:01 GMT -5
I have an Xbox but no Orta. I've seen it used at my local store for $8 and been meaning to pick it up, but haven't yet.
I remember playing it at a Wal-Mart demo kiosk and sucking tremendously at it. It did look gorgeous at the time. Sucks that like most other Sega Xbox games, it's not compatiable with Xbox 360.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 21, 2007 20:20:08 GMT -5
So let's talk about this. Does anyone here who has an Xbox NOT own Orta? Because it's like $10 and you should buy it definitely. *sigh* Iiiiiiiii dooooon't. *blush* But it's on my list of XBOX games to snag, rest assure. Also, because I always want to build my Saturn collection, I'm definitely thinking about getting the first two games. But if I were to get any games first (or if I were only to get one game), should I make PTO my first priority?
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Post by ahnslaught on Feb 21, 2007 21:07:40 GMT -5
This is my personal favorite series. To me, these series of rail shooters are some of the most cinematic games I've ever played. Orta, Saga and Zwei still look wonderful to this day, and all have great replay value. Orta in particular, with its tons of bonuses and the branching paths. They are all, however, memorizers, so if you don't like that, it's probably not going to be for you.
While I've heard some hardcore fans of the series say Zwei is the best, I actually prefer Orta. Maybe Zwei's preferred because of the evolution system, or maybe because of nostalgia and the fact that it was such a leap over the first; either way, it is a great game. Orta, though, has an easy to use three dragon system, a good story, and very creative bosses. It was also, IMO, the best looking console game when it came out, and still is today.
I finally saved the funds to pick up Saga in 2006. The game still holds up quite well, I think, though the main complaint against it - that it's too easy - becomes very apparent once you pick up the Vengeance Orbs. While it still has some clunky interface problems (use cursor to look around, etc.), the story's my favorite of all RPGs and other facets of the game such as the soundtrack are still amazing. Oh, and the dragon morph system very cool. Graphics are dated, though, and I found it hard at times to even figure out what the hell I was looking at more than once.
I'm not sure if you guys knew, but Gamespot did a pretty cool feature on the history of PD a long time ago, around the time of Orta's release. Apparently, Saga and Zwei were developed concurrently, with the Saga team taking stuff learned from Zwei and further enhancing Saga, which came out some time after. Too lazy to find the link, but it should be quite easy to find online.
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Post by munchy on Feb 21, 2007 21:25:36 GMT -5
At one point I had an Xbox, but I sold it to make up some room in my... room. Now I've got a 360, and am hoping for the day when Microsoft releases the "make all old Xbox games work" plugin.
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Post by michiyoyoshiku on Feb 22, 2007 0:13:21 GMT -5
It's a sin Orta isn't Backword compatable on 360 yet and seeing how most XBOX games look BETTER on the 360 than they did on XBOX it's a real Shame as Orta was one of the if not THE best looking XBOX game.
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Post by Discoalucard on Feb 22, 2007 0:22:30 GMT -5
So, someone has to tell me I'm not crazy. I'm reading around the internets that the PC version of Panzer Dragoon gets a bad rap, for reasons that don't seem to be clearly explained. About the only real complaint I can read is that the frame rate isn't so good. The PC version is the one contained as an unlockable in PD Orta for the Xbox. And...the frame rate is about the same as the PS2 version, which in turn was the same as the Saturn version. At least, it seems that way to me.
The XBox/PC version does look better than the Saturn version, but only because it's running at a higher resolution. The PS2 one looks marginally better than all of them, but only barely.
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Post by klausien on Feb 23, 2007 20:19:09 GMT -5
I've been wondering how the PS2 version of PD fares. Is the enhanced mode any different than the PC version and XBox unlockable? If it is in even the slightest bit, I will have to get it. Probably will anyway considering that I absolutely love the series. I will probably find myself shelling out the cash for the GG game someday too.
For me, each game in the series showed a marked improvement over the previous installment. The two things retained throughout are the absolutely fantastic Moebius-inspired (designed?) bio-technological word of the ancient future, and the incredible soundtrack. The first is more of the orchestral persuasion and is ever so slightly less appropriate than the world music infused scores of the rest of the series. Panzer Dragoon Saga has one of the best OSTs out there. If you have ever enjoyed the Peter Gabriel album Passion, which is songs from and inspired by Scorcese's film treatment of The Last Temptation fo Christ, then you know what to expect. It would make a perfect Dune soundtrack as well.
The first game was awe-inspiring when it was first released, but is more of a seed than a blossoming flower when viewed through 2007 eyes. The branching paths, tighter & more varied gameplay, and better graphics overall have allowed time to be kinder to Zwei. It is still suoer-intense (you never forget that first time the dragon takes flight), and well-designed when compared to the beautiful, updated Orta. Zwei compares to the first in a way analogous to pitting the Saturn versions of Sega Rally & Daytona USA, or even VF 1 & VF2 against each other (well, maybe not as strikingly as the latter). One of my college roommates played my copy of Zwei extensively. I think it still may be his favorite game to this day (it may be a toss up with Blazing Lazers). He used to constantly say to me as I left, "Hey man, can I get in a little PD before class?" He was not exactly a video game type of guy either.
Outside the obvious advantage XBox-level graphics bring to the table, Orta takes the core mechanics a step further. Taking cues from PD Saga, it bridges the gap quite well. The dragon morphing, greater sense of control over the dragon, and emphasis on positioning are a definite ode to the battle system of Saga. It also looks like a next-gen game, but it is from relatively early in the last generation. My first three XBox games were PD Orta, Otogi & Halo 2, in that order, all before getting a system. Had to have the new Panzer Dragoon.
Finally, PD Saga. I got mine in the second stealth printing that happened after the original shipment sold out. I was looking for it actively, and happened to get one of two that had just been delivered as I walked into my local EB Games. They never saw another copy in that store. I was more than pleased with my $50 purchase. I have since gotten a chip, so I copied it and no longer take it out other than to show people. I play the backup.
As for the game, it was an excellent melding of the flavor of the shooting games with RPG conventions. The battle system, while being extremely easy, is incredibly satisfying and remains fun throughout the course of the game. It might be my personal favorite system, though I am far from an RPG buff. That fact also makes the 12-15 hour quest much more palatable to me than a 60-100 hour slog through a Final Fantasy or Dragon Quest game. The graphics have aged rather poorly & it is one of those games where you pick up hundreds of useless doodads that can only be exchanged for cash, but the sound & voice acting remain superb, and the story is quite cool. It is worth what it goes for in my admittedly biased eyes. i just wish more people could experience, and sadly, appreciate it considering where games have gone.
Sega needs to make another Panzer Dragoon RPG, and make it for the 360. A Wii shooting game would also be most excellent, but if it is to ever be an RPG, even a remake, it must at least be on one of the hi-def systems.
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Post by ahnslaught on Feb 23, 2007 20:35:26 GMT -5
I also think the PD series is notable for the language it uses in many scenes. Seriously, how many other games are out there where they create a believable language? It's just another indication of the care it went into making this series. klausien: I read an interview online somewhere where they say the PD team hired Moebius to just do the illustration for the original game. While the team was clearly inspired by his work (along with other stuff like Nausicaa), if the interview is to be believed, I don't think he did any of the designs in the game proper. I think the interview can be found somewhere in this site: www.panzerdragoon.net/.
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Post by Discoalucard on Feb 23, 2007 21:30:53 GMT -5
Playing through PD Saga again, I'm kinda disappointed that they started off the game in Panzerese and then went to regular Japanese. Anywhere, here are some comparison shots. The PS2 version looks the best out of all of them, but only barely. Better dragon model and better texturing in general. I'll need to play more of the arrange mode to see if they've really changed anything else. The Xbox one looks more washed out than it should, just because the connection is like that. I don't know why - I'm using the same cables for the PS2 and that looks fine. It seems to affect all Xbox games though...maybe it's just the way it outputs s-video. Saturn (technically, the PS2 version running in Saturn mode. I'm lending my actual Saturn copy to a friend.) PC version from the Xbox version of Orta PS2 Arrange version I noticed that the PC/Xbox versions have slight rolling waves in the first stage. The other versions do not.
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