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Post by wyrdwad on Sept 20, 2009 12:53:47 GMT -5
There's nothing to say that a translation using flowery language can't ALSO read smoothly, however. The two are not mutually exclusive! You speak as if the Vagrant Story translation is hard to comprehend, when it's really not, at all... it's flowery, but still ENTIRELY readable, without any difficulty whatsoever. And the language really helps add to an already very immersive atmosphere.
On the other side of the coin, an example of a game that needed a flowery translation, but did NOT receive one, is Muramasa: The Demon Blade on Wii. Ignition's translation of that game was terrible... they took every line, and cut it down to 1/3 or less of its length in the Japanese, and removed every last bit of samurai flair that was present in the original language. Technically, it's still an accurate translation... but it's completely soulless, and really breaks the game's thick samurai drama atmosphere. No game I've ever played was more deserving of a convoluted, flowery, insane translation than Muramasa... but since it didn't receive one, it's much less interesting than it could've otherwise been.
-Tom
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Post by kimimi on Sept 20, 2009 13:10:55 GMT -5
While I think about it - can somebosy tell me if the bonkers translation of Bangai-O (Dreamcast) is deliberate, overly literal or a crazy person unleashed on a keyboard? I've never played the Japanese version, so I've never been able to check.
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Post by kobushi on Sept 20, 2009 18:10:19 GMT -5
I have not yet played a game that is written in Ye Olde Japanese, so I don't understand the need to translate it into some half-assed attempt at old English. Are you joking? Japanese video games use antiquated phrasing all the time. Sure, they're not written in kanbun, but neithere are the gammes of oure soils writ to liken the swete songes of Chaucer. While I disagree with spotlessmind's evaluation, he was absolutely right in pointing out that the English translations in Vagrant Story and FF Tactics are not authentic historical language. The language is written to give the impression of an older society, while still remaining accessible to modern readers. Besides, I mentioned Vagrant Story earlier as an example of a game that is better written in English than in Japanese. The translation actually improved the game by using language that adds to the atmosphere. Obviously not everyone agrees, but the language in Vagrant Story was one of the first things that everyone pointed out when it was first released. Now, it's very easy to overdo it. For example, all the thees and thous in Dragon Warrior gets on my nerves. Dragon Quest (in Japanese) still uses some older phrasing (like 勇者ロトの血をひきし者 and いずこともなく), but skillfully and in moderation. I think the translation of Vagrant Story is similarly skillful.
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Post by kobushi on Sept 20, 2009 18:58:12 GMT -5
While I think about it - can somebosy tell me if the bonkers translation of Bangai-O (Dreamcast) is deliberate, overly literal or a crazy person unleashed on a keyboard? I've never played the Japanese version, so I've never been able to check. I've only played a little bit of the new DS game, but it's very tongue-in-cheek, and very... giddy. It's actually quite funny in some places. I don't anything about the DC game or any of the English versions, though.
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Post by spotlessmind on Sept 21, 2009 0:51:22 GMT -5
I mention chocobos because, in a constructed fantasy setting, the appropriate historical period and prose style is highly debatable. Yes, I understand that. In the comment by conn that I was replying to, he specifically justified Vagrant Story's linguistic idiom on the grounds that the game was "rooted in medieval society and culture". I took issue with this appeal to authenticity, as the writing in the game has nothing to do with medieval language. I then went on to voice my personal opinion that the writing was poorly conceived, but this was a separate complaint. You can defend the translation on purely aesthetic grounds, if you like, but you can't say that it's a more appropriate direction than another might have been, simply because of the setting. I think the fact that, as you note, this is a constructed fantasy world, just emboldens the font on this point. I will also say that if your standards for game writing are as high they appear to be, you are in for plenty of disappointment. While I might wish that video game writing were equal in quality to Tolkien or Shakespeare or a good translation of Homer, I know it's just not there (yet). However, what we have in the meantime is more than sufficient, especially given the improvements in localization quality that have occurred in the last decade. Well, my standards for writing don't change across mediums. I wouldn't say I'm disappointed; I don't often play games for story or writing, so it's only a problem for me when I accidentally stumble into a story-centric game with a melodramatic plot that takes itself far too seriously and stuffs cut-scene exposition down the player's throat. It's true, there are very few games whose writing has impressed me as anything more than serviceable (though there are some exceptions with genuinely excellent scripts). Writing in games is still a fallow field, and cultivating it is unfortunately not a priority for the games industry. I don't believe in A's for Effort though. When improvements in writing quality finally result in quality writing, then I'll celebrate. Anyway, if it wasn't clear, I wouldn't want to see historically correct Middle English in a game. That would be ridiculous, and I don't think there's any need for it. Modern literature has any number of creative solutions for dealing with language in historical settings, without trying, or pretending, to be authentic. Sometimes it's much better to use certain styles or dialects than to use plain/flat modern language, and it pleases me when people put time into their scripts to make it sound better/more authentic/flow better. Literal translations/speaking for the instant-lose. Sure, it's always better to put forth a personal style than to use plain, tedious language. But I think you're suggesting that VS's translation marks it as distinct from modern language, when it's just a style of modern language like any other. It tries to evoke ye olden times with stiffly formal, theatrical phrasing and a somewhat willowy vocabulary, trading on the modern era's peculiarly romanticized, courtly images of some ill-defined "middle" period of European history, but there was nothing in it that the average 12 year old wouldn't understand (I hope). There's no reason that a less gilded writing style, one more interested in reflecting patterns and rhythms of genuine speech, would be duller.
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Post by wyrdwad on Sept 21, 2009 1:28:35 GMT -5
This is exactly 100% correct. And I think the point we're trying to make is that we see absolutely nothing wrong with this whatsoever, and in fact rather LIKE it. (: You say there's no reason that a "less gilded writing style ... would be duller"... and I purport that in fact, it would be. It wouldn't have the theatrical charm of the writing style used in Vagrant Story - which, given the game's melodramatic plot, seemed entirely appropriate, and was extremely enjoyable to me. I can't imagine any other writing style being more enjoyable for that particular game. As far as I'm concerned, Smith's work on it was absolutely 100% perfect.
-Tom
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Post by conn on Sept 21, 2009 3:47:55 GMT -5
I have not yet played a game that is written in Ye Olde Japanese, so I don't understand the need to translate it into some half-assed attempt at old English. [...] Using old English gives games an air of sophistication that they don't even have in the land of their birth. But is this a necessarily a bad thing? I think it's entirely fair for a translation team to spruce up the dialogue and make it more... I hate this phrase... 'culturally relevant'. The west tends to view medieval Europe in a somewhat romanticised and melodramatic fashion (no doubt due to all the literature and plays from the era), and using dialogue that invokes that feeling sounds like a great idea, regardless of what language was used in the Japanese version. I guess it varies on a case-by-case basis, though. Yes, I understand that. In the comment by conn that I was replying to, he specifically justified Vagrant Story's linguistic idiom on the grounds that the game was "rooted in medieval society and culture". I took issue with this appeal to authenticity, as the writing in the game has nothing to do with medieval language. I then went on to voice my personal opinion that the writing was poorly conceived, but this was a separate complaint. You can defend the translation on purely aesthetic grounds, if you like, but you can't say that it's a more appropriate direction than another might have been, simply because of the setting. Actually, I was talking about Final Fantasy Tactics, though I understand its translation is in the same style as Vagrant Story Anyway, I probably should have phrased it better. I did not mean to imply that either the world nor language in FFT (or Vagrant Story) was completely historically accurate, but rather that is it based- much more heavily than most, but still loosely- on medieval Europe. FFT's church is basically the Catholic church, and one of the Beoulves can be seen as an allegory for Richard III of England. Using language that is not entirely accurate but still invokes the feeling of the era seems entirely reasonable. Especially since very few would actually understand historically accurate writing. I do think that it's a more appropriate direction for the game to take, because it adds to the charm and feeling of the game. Like I said, it invokes the feeling of the medieval era, which is fitting because the whole game is trying to invoke that feeling. It further draws you in and creates more atmosphere. I don't think the game would be quite as interesting with a more modern English translation...
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Post by derboo on Sept 21, 2009 4:04:49 GMT -5
Now I want to play Vagrant Story in English.
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Post by Ace Whatever on Sept 21, 2009 19:47:59 GMT -5
Here's a work in progress shot: Enjoy *runs*
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Post by kobushi on Sept 21, 2009 22:15:41 GMT -5
;D
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