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Post by Discoalucard on Apr 10, 2010 12:22:32 GMT -5
www.hardcoregaming101.net/7thdragon/7thdragon.htmI sorta wanted to write an article about this when it came out a year ago, but I assumed it would've been localized and making it kinda redundant. But despite persistent rumors, there's still nothing set in stone, which is really annoying. People keep heralding the DS as the new savior of JRPGs, but a lot of the stuff is either remakes of games I've already played, spinoffs no one asked for, or otherwise low tier-dreck. Which is why 7th Dragon frustrated me so much, because it actually was a game I was interested in, but it hasn't left Japan. I never really got into Etrian Odyssey because those kind of super hardcore Wizardry-style first person dungeon crawlers don't really gel with me. Well, 7th Dragon is basically Etrian Odyssey, except done as a third person JRPG a la Dragon Quest. I like this much better (never liked the whole map making thing, honestly), especially since the battle system is more visually engaging. I'm still not a fan of the character development system though, and while I like a lot of the old school design sensibilities, the "grind in a dungeon by leaving and reentering several times" is something that I'm cool with never seeing again. Does that sound contradictory? Anyway, I'm not sure if I'm done with this article. I probably am, but I need to resize all of the character class portraits, because they're currently all wonky.
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Post by Shellshock on Apr 10, 2010 13:02:45 GMT -5
This game looks gorgeous, but I'm not touching it. But yeah, while certain game journalists call that kind of life-consuming, mind-numbing grinding part of the nostalgic appeal, I wish it would be abolished. It's kind of insulting that developers think we have 100+ hours to waste traveling in and out of dungeons until a certain stat is high enough to advance to the next floor.
That's why Final Fantasy and Dragon Quest remakes are "dumbed down" and some of the grinding is removed. Because we aren't 9 year olds anymore. We don't have to devour any title we are lucky to be given on Christmas anymore, no matter how unfair or primitively designed it is.
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Post by Discoalucard on Apr 10, 2010 13:10:19 GMT -5
To an extent I think it's OK on a portable format, as it's a good time waster. But I rarely fly and I have a quick car commute to work, so the opportunity doesn't really arise.
Although I bought the game, I've been playing it solely on an emulator, with save states and frame skip.
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Post by Shellshock on Apr 10, 2010 14:09:30 GMT -5
Although I bought the game, I've been playing it solely on an emulator, with save states and frame skip. Ha ha. I couldn't do that, I rather not play it. It feels like cheating.
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Post by ryochan on Apr 10, 2010 16:50:45 GMT -5
Definitely peruse the article again, by the way. At one point you ended up with a comma where a period should be and, here:
To be fair, most dungeons have a restorative point that will To be fair, most dungeons have a restorative point that will completely heal your party and can be used an unlimited amount of times
You somehow printed "To be fair" twice.
As for this sort of game, I think it's directed at a certain type of person, and the idea to abolish the mass grinding in all RPGs isn't really necessary. I sometimes love to grind, so a game like this would be perfect for me when I'm in that mood. Plus, some of us still have to play our games massively because we don't have money to buy too many.
Anyway, it looks really cute. Too bad it sounds like it won't come over here to the US.
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Post by Atma on Apr 10, 2010 18:21:33 GMT -5
This is also a game I really want localized, because I am one of those hardcore weirdoes who worship EO and such that you speak of. It really saddens me nobody's translated it yet, and at this rate, it doesn't look like it will be. I may just have to import it and suck it up for now.
Watch, the second I do, they'll localize it.
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Post by cj iwakura on Apr 11, 2010 0:37:35 GMT -5
I think part of the charm of Etrian Odyssey(and dungeon crawlers in general) is the thrill of exploring unknown territory, with the fear of a fluke death waiting just around the corner thanks to some new, terrifying enemy.
Strange Journey carries this over especially well, thanks in part to the game being creepy as hell.
I'm not sure 7D would be as fun without that element, though I do like the art design.
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Post by ryochan on Apr 11, 2010 0:43:53 GMT -5
I'd say I'd translate it but it'd be put on the eternal list of others things I keep telling myself need translated
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Post by Ganelon on Apr 11, 2010 0:52:26 GMT -5
I can't stand the art direction. And now with this nice overview, I guess I'm not really interested in any other aspects of the game either.
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Post by kimimi on Apr 11, 2010 1:28:10 GMT -5
This game looks gorgeous, but I'm not touching it. But yeah, while certain game journalists call that kind of life-consuming, mind-numbing grinding part of the nostalgic appeal, I wish it would be abolished. It's kind of insulting that developers think we have 100+ hours to waste traveling in and out of dungeons until a certain stat is high enough to advance to the next floor. That's why Final Fantasy and Dragon Quest remakes are "dumbed down" and some of the grinding is removed. Because we aren't 9 year olds anymore. We don't have to devour any title we are lucky to be given on Christmas anymore, no matter how unfair or primitively designed it is. I love you. I bought 7th Dragon a while ago, but I've not done a lot in it exactly for these reasons - it's a good game, but I don't have the time for this sort of hoop-jumping anymore.
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Post by wyrdwad on Apr 11, 2010 1:48:22 GMT -5
One note:
As I understand it, Koshiro actually composed the 8-bit versions of these songs FIRST, then adapted them to the in-game OST versions. It's the same technique he used for Etrian Odyssey, and he's gone on record as saying that it was a method devised to capture more of a nostalgic feel by actually composing songs in a primitive/nostalgic manner, then "arranging" them into more modern instrumentation, in an effort to keep a bit of that "old-school" charm that would be missing if he composed the tracks for new-school instrumentation directly.
Don't ask me where I read this - I just know I read it somewhere, and I found it really fascinating! If you can confirm this, I think it would be a great addition to the article.
Otherwise... awesome article! I wholly disagree with Ganelon: I think this game has some of the nicest character art I've seen in the last DECADE, much less the last few years. It reminds me of old-school PopoloCrois. (:
-Tom
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Post by Shellshock on Apr 11, 2010 10:11:47 GMT -5
This game looks gorgeous, but I'm not touching it. But yeah, while certain game journalists call that kind of life-consuming, mind-numbing grinding part of the nostalgic appeal, I wish it would be abolished. It's kind of insulting that developers think we have 100+ hours to waste traveling in and out of dungeons until a certain stat is high enough to advance to the next floor. That's why Final Fantasy and Dragon Quest remakes are "dumbed down" and some of the grinding is removed. Because we aren't 9 year olds anymore. We don't have to devour any title we are lucky to be given on Christmas anymore, no matter how unfair or primitively designed it is. I love you. Awww. I like you too, Kimimi. But we are both married.
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Post by Strider on Apr 11, 2010 10:22:51 GMT -5
At this point in my life, I absolutely do not have time to fit in a grindfest like Etrian Odyssey or 7th Dragon, but I can't help but feel that there's a parallel universe not far from this one where my workdays begin and end with a 40-minute train ride and I think Etrian Odyssey is the best game ever.
- HC
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Post by Shellshock on Apr 11, 2010 11:16:17 GMT -5
As for this sort of game, I think it's directed at a certain type of person, and the idea to abolish the mass grinding in all RPGs isn't really necessary. I sometimes love to grind, so a game like this would be perfect for me when I'm in that mood. Plus, some of us still have to play our games massively because we don't have money to buy too many. Of course it's directed to a certain public, it's the older gamers who grew up with these games and now get a chance to revisit them within a technical uplift. I know some of you younger ones like it too, but you are not the primary target demographic. Nothing needs to be abolished. After all, it's all about tastes and we are all different. But there's different kinds of grinding. There's Final Fantasy 6 light grinding, there's Dragon Quest 1 old-school JRPG grinding, and then on top of it all there's old WRPG, Etrian Odyssey 100+ hours kind of grinding. The latter is just unacceptable to me. I hope you aren't just forcing your way through these games because you can't afford to get new ones. Reaching experience level 99 because you want to is one thing, but doing it because the game requires you to in order to advance is another.
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Post by ryochan on Apr 11, 2010 16:10:42 GMT -5
Of course it's directed to a certain public, it's the older gamers who grew up with these games and now get a chance to revisit them within a technical uplift. I know some of you younger ones like it too, but you are not the primary target demographic. First, I don't think I count as a younger one. I'm 29, so I grew up with Atari and NES and all. So I actually grew up with things like Final Fantasy and Dragon Quest. The reason I can't buy many games is I can't work and Social Security still is trying to say I can. I hope you aren't just forcing your way through these games because you can't afford to get new ones. Reaching experience level 99 because you want to is one thing, but doing it because the game requires you to in order to advance is another. Nope. As I said, I love grinding from time to time, and so when I feel up to it, I'll pull out a game in which I can do so. For example, I don't really like Grandia Xtreme that much, but the extra maze that opens after you beat the game is great when I feel like grinding a bit, because the battle system is rather enjoyable. I usually don't max to level 99 unless I'm really enjoying the game, or I'm being silly (and even then I'll do like 15 minute bursts on those games), and although I've forced myself to beat some games, usually if I'm having too much trouble/frustration, I'll just cheat (mostly because I am sort of compiling info about console RPGs so playing and beating a lot is good). Anyway, I understand that not everyone LIKES the games where you have to spend hours upon hours just leveling up, and having to reach certain milestones in order to complete, but some people DO. The reason I basically said don't eliminate that sort of game is the same reason I say don't eliminate random, unseen battles; not everyone hates it. And if we eliminated things that at least one person disliked, then we'd have no games at all. After all, I really don't like most FPS', so should we eliminate them? So long as there is a market for a particular type of game, they will be produced. And if they aren't a sort of game you like, well you don't have to buy them.
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