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Post by Revolver Ocelot on Dec 6, 2010 22:33:56 GMT -5
Out of this World is still recognized today because it was a cool alien-themed platform game with a unique visual style that not many games had back then, not necessarily because it was an "art game". Had Out of this World been a completely terrible game, but with the same visuals it had, I doubt many people would still be talking about it today. It would have been another Rise of the Robot (terrible game with pretty graphics). Of course no one was saying OotW was an art game back then. The idea of art and video games existing within the same context is called ludicrous today. How do you think it would've been perceived back then? The "cool alien-theme", platforming and the visual style might be what initially drew people to the game, but it certainly is not what made it significant and inspirational, it certainly isn't why people are writing impassioned articles about it 20 years after the fact, and it certainly isn't why a generation of prolific game designers worship Eric Chahi. There was something about the game that resonated deeply with some of the people who played it, and whether or not that resonance occurred within you says more about you than it does about the game (and that's not me judging you or saying you're inferior), and if you think that resonance has ANYTHING to do with ledge-grabbing or laser-blasting, you truly just do not get it. I can dismiss the games you've mentioned as non-art because they're not. Again, those games have nothing to say and nothing to study unless you're looking for exemplary video game development. And you're the one making "entertainment" out to be a bad thing. You're being defensive and implying that people are making games that aren't artistic out to be inferior, and no one is saying that. And yes, art can be entertaining, but you're implying that something that's entertaining or elicits any kind of emotion is art, and it's not. You're getting caught up on budgets and other inconsequential semantics that no one but you is using as a crux to their argument. Some things are art. Some things aren't. People tend to prefer one or the other. If it bothers you that much, then stop talking about it.
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Audi
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Post by Audi on Dec 6, 2010 23:39:12 GMT -5
Out of this World is still recognized today because it was a cool alien-themed platform game with a unique visual style that not many games had back then, not necessarily because it was an "art game". Had Out of this World been a completely terrible game, but with the same visuals it had, I doubt many people would still be talking about it today. It would have been another Rise of the Robot (terrible game with pretty graphics). Maybe this is the general perception in the US market where it didn't have as much success and impact due to flawed marketing and stiff competition, but such a statement would certainly not fly well in Europe. I've probably interviewed 2 dozen art designer and developers across Norway, Spain, France, Germany etc who all listed AW as either their influence or even the launching point for their interest in either art or game development. It's graphical style was indeed what caught our eyes at first, but the immersion and content was what moved and inspired those who played it. It's not going to bond with every single person who plays it though, nothing ever does. To dismiss all the games I've mentioned as "non-art" and "mere entertainment" is frankly ridiculous. As if art can't be entertaining? As if the designers of those games had no artistic intentions and are mere craftsmen working on mass-produced goods because they were made on a budget (even though most of what we consider classical arts nowadays were actually made under paid commissions). I haven't seen anyone dismiss any other game for having an impact on game development or devalue their part in video game history. You can list 1000 games that are either more popular or better games in terms of control, but very few of them stripped video games down to its bare bones and rebuilt what it could be. From removing high scores, huds, time limits, it showed that you could make players care on a very deep level by using expressions, dynamic sound and psychology to fuel their interest rather than achieving a high ranking on a leaderboard or defeating your friend in direct competition. The games you list for the most part, maybe except Metroid, are very straight forward in what they try to say, if anything. But again, if you feel that the majority of them have artistic value to you, I wouldn't question your reasons because it's not a popularity contest, I'd just be interested in hearing them. Games being simply fun is not a detriment of its quality however, and don't know why you would think so. In my article I also draw no direct comparison to other games in terms of artistic or emotional expression because it's not meant to devalue any other games, doing so wouldn't make any sense. It states that AW is proof that a video games can be used as a platform to create art like a movie, a sheet of paper or a musical composition. It doesn't make every game or even gaming as a whole into art, just that this game to me is a piece of art and makes me think on a deeper level than most other games have. I don't want to argue video games as a whole being art because it's not that simple, art is subjective and comes down to individual perception and connection. The only approval it needs is from yourself if you feel it moves or incites any emotions in you. Being an art school graduate, there was nothing that was beat more into our heads than to keep an open mind on all things that could express itself, be it handcraft, films, pictures, paintings and even a video game. Whatever medium you use to create art, you still need the right combination of elements to incite something into the eyes of those who study it. I think one part of the problem is that when games are judged as "art", it's using the same criteria as non-interactive forms of media. I agree, which is why it's important to note on the developing friendship between alien companion and you controlling Lester, as well as uncovering the world through exploration and interactivity (like the tank scene or ending sequence where you crawl towards the lever.)
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Post by Revolver Ocelot on Dec 7, 2010 0:01:05 GMT -5
I agree, which is why it's important to note on the developing friendship between alien companion and you controlling Lester, as well as uncovering the world through exploration and interactivity (like the tank scene or ending sequence where you crawl towards the lever.) Exactly! Video games are a new medium, so they can't be judged as art based simply on their aesthetic or aural merits like non-interactive media. Again, unity is the key to art, and unity for video games includes gameplay. All the games I truly consider art (OotW, Ico, SotC, Flower) demonstrate every aspect, visuals, music, gameplay, etc., working together to create a unified experience that can't be dissected into manageable, observable components without destroying the entire game. That's why conventional review methods that break games down in that way just don't work, and will continue to work less and less as games become more artistic.
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Post by wyrdwad on Dec 7, 2010 0:14:20 GMT -5
You just seem to have something in your DNA that forces you to focus on tiny details at the expense of the greater picture. This isn't the first example. Ico isn't sexist. Sometimes a rose is just a rose. Did I actually say it was sexist? I wrote that review so long ago, I don't remember the exact details. I just remember HATING YORDA and WANTING HER TO DIE because she was TOO MUCH OF A WUSS TO DEFEND HERSELF OR CLIMB A FREAKING LADDER. Ugh, so aggravating! (: Remove Yorda from the game entirely, and just make it a puzzle-solving exploration game, and it'd be fine. But the Yorda factor just makes it an exercise in frustration for me. And yeah, we all have quirks. I can't stand playing Shadow Hearts, for example, because I hate the timing-based battle system. I pretty much hate timing-based battle systems in general -- unless they're specifically timed with music, at which point I suddenly love them again. Yet long load times don't bother me one bit. It's human nature to have pet peeves. Those are just a few of mine. -Tom
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Post by Weasel on Dec 7, 2010 0:51:50 GMT -5
The needless argument in this thread has made me feel bad about liking OOTW. Thanks, you guys, you just ruined one of my favorite games.
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Post by Ryu the Grappler on Dec 7, 2010 0:57:01 GMT -5
My entire point is that "art game" is nothing more than a pretentious label to make mediocre and subpar video games more important than what they really are. The word "art" itself doesn't even have a one single universally agreed definition. "Art" could mean anything from an illustration drawn by someone, to any product of creativity, or even a skill (like martial arts or the art of cooking). Most people use it to discriminate between what they like (what they perceive to be "art") and what they dislike (the "non-arts"). Going by the first definition alone, Mario Paint is probably a much truer art game than any other game mentioned here so far. That's why it's a moot point to say that some games are not art, despite their quality. As for having an emotional response from a game, personally I felt more worried about keeping all my soldiers alive in a Fire Emblem game than I did with the alien buddy from Out of This World.
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Post by susanismyalias on Dec 7, 2010 1:01:04 GMT -5
A medium is a medium. There should be no goddamn debate about this. Can we get back on topic?
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Post by kal on Dec 7, 2010 1:03:51 GMT -5
Another World couldn't have asked for a more knowledgeable or understanding person to write such a fantastic article about it. As one of my personal favourite titles ever released it's great to see it given a write up it truely deserved.
As an aside Kaena: The Prophecy is a really really poor movie. I got it on the cheap and it's still terrible.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 7, 2010 1:04:59 GMT -5
A medium is a medium. There should be no goddamn debate about this. Can we get back on topic? I'm 100% on this. I REALLY hate every time this discussion comes up on here and devolves into a snitty bitchfest. Anyone keeps it up, and you will regret it. Understood?
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Post by Revolver Ocelot on Dec 7, 2010 1:09:16 GMT -5
Alright, folks, let's stop having this intelligent and well-thought debate that miraculously managed not to break out into a flame war. It bothers people for no reason. We need to get back on topic... which I guess means we should just post variations of "Good article." and "Bad article." We don't want people thinking or sharing thoughts, now, do we? What do you think this is, a discussion board?
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Post by Warchief Onyx on Dec 7, 2010 1:14:20 GMT -5
Alright, folks, let's stop having this intelligent and well-thought debate that miraculously managed not to break out into a flame war. It bothers people for no reason. We need to get back on topic... which I guess means we should just post variations of "Good article." and "Bad article." We don't want people thinking or sharing thoughts, now, do we? What do you think this is, a discussion board? There's an intelligent debate here? Coulda fooled me.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 7, 2010 1:14:20 GMT -5
Alright, folks, let's stop having this intelligent and well-thought debate that miraculously managed not to break out into a flame war. It bothers people for no reason. We need to get back on topic... which I guess means we should just post variations of "Good article." and "Bad article." We don't want people thinking, now, do we? Stay classy, ocelot. Seriously, if you want to argue what makes art, art design, or other subjective crap make a dedicated thread. Oh wait, last time that happened the thread got locked because people were too childish to handle it. And the time before that, and the time before that...
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 7, 2010 1:19:36 GMT -5
I've seen the "Games as Art" debate head south many times, this board included. I just don't see any good coming out of it if allowed to continue, honestly. Maybe my previous response was cranky, but I really do get sick of seeing this topic pop up when I don't think it's warranted.
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Post by Revolver Ocelot on Dec 7, 2010 1:28:21 GMT -5
Stay classy, ocelot. Seriously, if you want to argue what makes art, make a dedicated thread. Oh wait, last time that happened the thread got locked because people were too childish to handle it. True as that may be, does that mean your forum mates shouldn't be given the benefit of the doubt? Everyone involved remained fairly civil and no insults were tossed. I don't think there's any ill will here. I've seen the "Games as Art" debate head south many times, this board included. I just don't see any good coming out of it if allowed to continue, honestly. Maybe my previous response was cranky, but I really do get sick of seeing this topic pop up when I don't think it's warranted. So because the discussion isn't to your taste, we can't have it? That sounds frightfully dictatoresque... At any rate, the discussion has run its course anyway, so I guess I'm done here.
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Post by piratesephiroth on Dec 7, 2010 1:58:20 GMT -5
*First of all, you take more time to read that article than to play through the whole game. *Second, it's full of spoilers. *Third, the GBA port is freeware and unnoficial, authorized by Eric Chahi though. *Fourth, I don't remember any censorship in the naked aliens... the "uncensored" shot shows the moment that the ship lands, scaring the girls into the water. The other one shows the same scene seconds before the impact. You can easily tell that by looking at the swimming chick.
Just like Super Mario Bros. and the original Zelda, Metroid and Castlevania games, Another Wolrd is a classic.
It's nothing about being "art".
It about being ahead of it's time. It's about doing the impossible.
there goes my first post
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