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Post by Warchief Onyx on Mar 16, 2012 11:46:08 GMT -5
I am incredibly excited about this game. Reading the comments on that article was incredibly depressing. It's all they better/not change to 4th. I'm commitng sepukku if they release it for consloles. Planescape: Torment should be redone instead. Bioware sucks. I think I'm officially done reading comments. And I visit the PS blog every Tuesday. Comment sections for any site are pretty abysmal places. I have a sort of masochistic tendency to read the comments for Yahoo News articles just to see how many people make comments about Obama being a muslim atheist socialist in the pockets of big banks. And being from Kenya. Oh, and all sorts of comments about how women and "queers" have no rights. I've heard this is going to be a pretty straight up port of the two with some added content. Kinda hope that they'll make the interface or graphics a lot better (at least get the option to get away from isometric view; ugh). Makes me sound like a WRPG heretic, but it's a big part of why I have a lot of trouble getting into Bioware's and Black Isle's Infinity Engine RPG's. It's really hard for me to get immersed in the settings. Also doesn't help that I don't really like AD&D 2E. Probably would've helped if I didn't get into WRPG's very late (my first was Morrowind), but while I can definitely see how they'd be fine for their time, they feel really antiquated to a lot of newcomers. Though on that note, I'm pretty surprised 4E didn't see more video games based on its system. Considering the thing is practically a video game system in pen and paper form, you'd think it would be perfect. But I think there's only one game using it, and it's apparently terrible. Oh well. Maybe 5E will be more popular/better and we'll see a D&D game resurgence.
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Post by The Great Klaid on Mar 16, 2012 16:23:56 GMT -5
I am incredibly excited about this game. Reading the comments on that article was incredibly depressing. It's all they better/not change to 4th. I'm commitng sepukku if they release it for consloles. Planescape: Torment should be redone instead. Bioware sucks. I think I'm officially done reading comments. And I visit the PS blog every Tuesday. Comment sections for any site are pretty abysmal places. I have a sort of masochistic tendency to read the comments for Yahoo News articles just to see how many people make comments about Obama being a muslim atheist socialist in the pockets of big banks. And being from Kenya. Oh, and all sorts of comments about how women and "queers" have no rights. I've heard this is going to be a pretty straight up port of the two with some added content. Kinda hope that they'll make the interface or graphics a lot better (at least get the option to get away from isometric view; ugh). Makes me sound like a WRPG heretic, but it's a big part of why I have a lot of trouble getting into Bioware's and Black Isle's Infinity Engine RPG's. It's really hard for me to get immersed in the settings. Also doesn't help that I don't really like AD&D 2E. Probably would've helped if I didn't get into WRPG's very late (my first was Morrowind), but while I can definitely see how they'd be fine for their time, they feel really antiquated to a lot of newcomers. Though on that note, I'm pretty surprised 4E didn't see more video games based on its system. Considering the thing is practically a video game system in pen and paper form, you'd think it would be perfect. But I think there's only one game using it, and it's apparently terrible. Oh well. Maybe 5E will be more popular/better and we'll see a D&D game resurgence. www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/116361-Beamdog-Boss-Reveals-More-About-Baldurs-Gate-Enhanced-EditionThat answers a few questions. I know what you mean about getting into WRPG's late. I got in at this time, but games like Eye of the Beholder and Might and Magic are just painful to me. Also, as someone who DM's 4th. I am kind of miffed they never made a game based on it. I constantly add things up and explain abilities like a video game. But they realized there is no way in hell they could follow up Neverwinter Nights. NWN didn't do a good job, but I just kind of started the damn thing, so maybe it feels better the longer I play.
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Post by Warchief Onyx on Mar 16, 2012 18:00:53 GMT -5
I wonder what the status of that Cryptic Neverwinter game is anyway. Granted I'm not even sure if it was going to be based off 4E or not (lot of talk suggested it using an original gameplay system, which kinda defeats the purpose of a D&D-based RPG but OK), but it's no real big loss or anything. Cryptic's a pretty crappy developer except when it comes to Create-a-Character modes.
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Post by Sac (a.k.a Icaras) on Mar 16, 2012 20:08:29 GMT -5
I like the idea of an enhanced edition of the game(s). Hopefully with more Minsc!
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Post by Feynman on Mar 16, 2012 20:18:27 GMT -5
Based on everything I've ever heard people say about Baldur's Gate, "I don't like the interface" and "I came into WRPGs late" seem to be code for "I am used to simplified console-style WRPGs and PC interfaces scare me." I really just don't understand what's not to like about the interface used in the Infinity Engine games... it works almost exactly like an RTS, with mouse-based movement controls and hotkeys to access things like spell books and inventory.
As for the isometric perspective... well, that's a very subjective thing, and personally I think it's great. I prefer it over the camera used in games like Dragon Age, as you have a better view of the battlefield, which is very helpful when micromanaging 6 different characters.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 16, 2012 20:24:32 GMT -5
I've played plenty of PC RPGs. I can appreciate the difference between using a controller and pointing and clicking. It just seemed as though the interface for Baldur's Gate wasn't very intuitive. I remember being very frustrated when it came to just moving people around, let alone getting them to do anything.
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Post by Feynman on Mar 16, 2012 20:34:43 GMT -5
I remember being very frustrated when it came to just moving people around, let alone getting them to do anything. Ah, I think I understand now. It seems like what gave you problems wasn't the interface itself, but rather the pathfinding, which is a common criticism of the Infinity Engine games. Those games all had rubbish pathfinding, and even if you turned up pathfinding to it's maximum setting, units still had an annoying tendency to get stuck trying to move around corners or other units, requiring an excessive amount of micromanaging unit movement in certain situations. EDIT: You could also be referring to the lack of visual feedback in combat. Since the Infinity Engine runs in real time but still operates based on turns (one round is 6 seconds), you run into issues where it looks like your character is attacking the enemy, but they already made all their attacks for the round, so the attack animations have almost no relation to whether a character is really attacking or not. Likewise, if you command a character to cast a spell but they're out of actions for the round, they will just stand there until the next round starts before casting, with no visual feedback. I can get behind better pathfinding and more direct visual feedback for less reliance on the combat log in combat. Those would be great changes, and those definitely are weak aspects of the interface.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 16, 2012 20:36:16 GMT -5
Ahhh. Well that would certainly explain it.
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Post by 9inchsamurai on Mar 16, 2012 23:54:41 GMT -5
The big problem I have with Baldur's Gate and other Infinity Engine games is that feedback problem feynman mentioned, and that each fight seems like it takes a lot of micromanagement/effort for not much reward. Sometimes I'll be fighting and then all of sudden I die and can't tell what happened (I know part of that is to blame on 2E rules but still). So then I'll try a hard fight again and have to pause constantly to micromanage everyone so that the mages won't be walking towards the enemy. I'm not a huge fan of RTS gameplay to begin with so I'm sure that doesn't help, but then you tack on the WRPG tendency where any given encounter gives minuscule experience and it really feels like all this effort I put in to micromanage everything isn't even worth it.
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Post by kisai on Mar 17, 2012 2:07:55 GMT -5
Will Larry, Darryl, and Darryl make a comeback?!
My only beef with Baldur's Gate was that it was too difficult to have a mage as the main character. You'd run into random encounters with 10 kobolds with shortbows, every single one aiming at the guy wearing robes...
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Post by zellsf on Mar 17, 2012 9:42:00 GMT -5
I remember being very frustrated when it came to just moving people around, let alone getting them to do anything. Ah, I think I understand now. It seems like what gave you problems wasn't the interface itself, but rather the pathfinding, which is a common criticism of the Infinity Engine games. Those games all had rubbish pathfinding, and even if you turned up pathfinding to it's maximum setting, units still had an annoying tendency to get stuck trying to move around corners or other units, requiring an excessive amount of micromanaging unit movement in certain situations. EDIT: You could also be referring to the lack of visual feedback in combat. Since the Infinity Engine runs in real time but still operates based on turns (one round is 6 seconds), you run into issues where it looks like your character is attacking the enemy, but they already made all their attacks for the round, so the attack animations have almost no relation to whether a character is really attacking or not. Likewise, if you command a character to cast a spell but they're out of actions for the round, they will just stand there until the next round starts before casting, with no visual feedback. I can get behind better pathfinding and more direct visual feedback for less reliance on the combat log in combat. Those would be great changes, and those definitely are weak aspects of the interface. Pathfinding isn't much of an issue if you actually learn to play the game, the default formation is pretty bad for the pathfinding and in more complex areas you should use shift to queue up points rather than rely entirely on the pathfinding. As for the lack of feedback, spellcasters always cast 1 spell a round, and should never waste time doing anything else. Keeping track of when they can cast spells shouldn't be difficult (and even if it was, you could just tell them to do it anyway and they would do it at first opportunity). As for your warriors, it's really irrelevant exactly when their attacks are, most of them many of them miss anyway so you really can't count on that for anything. Give them a ranged weapon, make sure to restock ammo every once in a while. Also set them on a script that doesn't automatically engage enemies in close combat. As far as grievances with this 100+ hours series, I can think of worse ones than the ones it would take you a few minutes to figure out how to deal with. Recruit someone else asap, tell them to walk into the kobolds first. You're probably talking about the first game since this is hardly ever a problem in the second one, and travelling alone in that isn't safe (and that makes sense). Recruit everyone you run into until you have a full party, you can change it later.
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Post by Feynman on Mar 17, 2012 12:06:23 GMT -5
Pathfinding isn't much of an issue if you actually learn to play the game, the default formation is pretty bad for the pathfinding and in more complex areas you should use shift to queue up points rather than rely entirely on the pathfinding. As for the lack of feedback, spellcasters always cast 1 spell a round, and should never waste time doing anything else. Keeping track of when they can cast spells shouldn't be difficult (and even if it was, you could just tell them to do it anyway and they would do it at first opportunity). As for your warriors, it's really irrelevant exactly when their attacks are, most of them many of them miss anyway so you really can't count on that for anything. You can set queue points, but that is frequently very tedious, particularly in combat. More intelligent pathfinding to avoid unnecessary tedium would not be a bad thing. This is particularly apparent in really obnoxious areas like the Firewine Ruins in the original Baldur's Gate. Spellcasters will automatically queue up the spell you select to cast in the next round, yes, but it isn't a question of functionality, it's a question of visual feedback. It doesn't look like your character is getting ready to cast a spell. It looks like they're just standing there. A simple "I will cast my spell as soon as the next round starts" animation would make it easier for new players to understand what's going on. As for it not being relevant exactly when your fighters attack because of frequent misses, I completely disagree. Seeing your fighters actually attack instead of repeating the same attack animation with no regards to what they're actually doing would make the game more immersive, and make it easier for new players to understand what's happening in combat. Even having damage numbers appear over an enemy when hit instead of being forced to read the combat log (which is a feature in Planescape: Torment) is extremely helpful. I like the Infinity Engine games a lot. They're some of my favorite RPGs ever, and I have played them countless times. But that doesn't mean they can't be improved, or that they're immune to criticism. There are changes that could be made that would improve the games without sacrificing any depth or complexity.
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Post by zellsf on Mar 17, 2012 15:16:55 GMT -5
I can only think of one point in the entire trilogy where pathfinding in combat is relevant (yes, the one you named) so that's hardly an issue. And that's an extremely badly designed area to start with (infinite enemy spawning from practically every point in the map if you walk away from for a second).
They're showing the attack animation because they *are* attacking, they might not be attacking that precise second, but they are attacking. That's the kind of feedback you seem to be complaining the spellcasters don't have...?
Worrying about *exactly* how the combat system works and immersing yourself in the world seems mutually exclusive to me. For new players I would recommend not caring that much about the exact details of the combat system. Hell, I've replayed the trilogy tons of times and I still can't tell, or care exactly when my fighters are attacking. It's not that important.
Of course not, but when people say they haven't played it in nine years, I would rather not discourage them from replaying it over what are very minor problems that they might remember as worse problems than they actually are since they had a negative experience last time they played the game.
Legitimate criticism I think is more along the lines of how badly balanced the game is especially with regards to items (in both games) and spells (mostly in the second game) and how confusing spellcaster battles are in the second game (you really need to check the log to figure out what spell protections they are using because the visual feedback on *that* is pretty bad). That and the lack of decent difficulty selection (damage multipliers only? seriously?).
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Post by Weasel on Mar 17, 2012 17:30:53 GMT -5
I am slightly worried - they've stated that the "Enhanced" versions merely run on Throne of Bhaal's engine, so is this really just BG Tutu being resold, or are they putting in effort to get it running nicely at other screen resolutions like 1920x1080, under Windows 7, on 64-bit machines, without graphical glitches from newer video hardware?
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Post by zellsf on Mar 17, 2012 17:38:04 GMT -5
I am slightly worried - they've stated that the "Enhanced" versions merely run on Throne of Bhaal's engine, so is this really just BG Tutu being resold, or are they putting in effort to get it running nicely at other screen resolutions like 1920x1080, under Windows 7, on 64-bit machines, without graphical glitches from newer video hardware? That takes me five minutes. If that's the amount of effort they're willing to put into it, I'm not buying it. Edit: Anyway, they've also stated they they have the source code of the engine, they've also stated they will be adding new content. New characters at least. Summer 2012 release. They have an interest in eventually making Baldur's Gate III. I'm going to guess this is mostly a grand plan to get more Twitter followers though.
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