iwant
Full Member
erotic enka funk breaks
Posts: 225
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Post by iwant on Jan 31, 2014 20:52:43 GMT -5
So, I'm learning Japanese and since I'm pretty sure there are other people here who do too, I thought starting a thread that could be of interest to anyone willing to learn that language could be a nice initiative. Learning Japanese can be a pretty hard process at times, especially when you have to do it by yourself - so discussing with fellow learners is, I believe, an essential aspect of it. The idea is to get learners together so that they can share tips, ask questions, help each other, etc. If I'm not mistaken, there are a handful of people on HG101 who already are at an advanced level of learning - well, and Yukito, obviously. I think it would be great if they could join in as well - there is no help like help coming from people who actually know what's they're talking about. So, let's open the thread with stuff about kanjis. A lot of people who start learning Japanese seem to keep away from them, thinking they'd better "learn 'em later" - but I found that being able to read little bits of actual text from a video game or a manga to be a huge boost to my motivation. It is a pretty fastidious task though, and the fact there are so many different "best methods" to learn them doesn't help. Besides, the way they're traditionaly taught in schools apparently is completely off the track. KANJIDAMAGE offers a radical-based (and hilarious) approach to learning kanjis and, while I obviously can't say whether or not it's the way it "should" be done, I definetely can say it's worked for me so far.
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Post by Scylla on Feb 1, 2014 17:01:08 GMT -5
The problem with how Japanese is taught, specifically kanji, is that adults learning it as a second language are often taught with the same approach used for little kids in Japan, which makes no sense. When you're dealing with little kids, they can't grasp complex concepts. So a kanji they'll learn really early on, like, say, "bird", has a ton of strokes, but they're taught it because it's a simple concept. While simpler kanji that have only two or three strokes may come many years later just because the meaning is a lot more advanced. Adults don't have that problem. They already know at least one language fluently and should be able to grasp complex concepts, so it makes a hell of a lot more sense to learn radicals and kanji in stroke order so that you can see how putting together the pieces of what you've already learned make kanji with higher stroke counts, rather than the rote memorization that kids do. ANYWAY I recommend TextFugu for those starting from scratch or close to it. You can go through quite a bit of lessons for free and decide if you like it. jisho.org/ for your dictionary needs. And I haven't started using it myself but people swear by WaniKani, which is from the same people as TextFugu. While TextFugu is general learning, WaniKani is solely about kanji and will take you much farther than TextFugu's kanji lessons. If you pay for TextFugu, you get a discount on WaniKani.
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Post by Joseph Joestar on Feb 1, 2014 17:42:05 GMT -5
As I'd mentioned in the New Year thread I've been trying to learn more Japanese, so this thread is relevant to my interests. I've been doing a lot of research on how to proceed, so here's some stuff I've come up with. I was considering getting a subscription to one of those "online textbook" services like TextFugu, but heard mixed things. I've heard a LOT of really bad stuff about JapanesePod101, because aside from having to pay for it there's tons and tons of ads and spam (both on the site/podcasts, and in your inbox). Anyway I'm going through Genki right now, then Japanese for Busy People. As for free stuff, I just found out about Tae Kim's website and it's great: www.guidetojapanese.org/learn/ . Also, looks like someone's uploaded both series of "Let's Learn Japanese Basic" to Youtube - I remember seeing this on PBS ages ago - and it's another one of those things that everyone recommends. Someone else was kind enough to scan the first 30 issues of Mangajin Magazine - www.thespectrum.net/features/mangajin/. It was my first exposure to Crayon Shin-Chan. Apps - the Tae Kim app for iphone is basically a portable version of his website; another app I liked was the Renzo, Inc. "Japanese" app - it's awesome for looking up kanji/phrases, and for checking stroke order on kanji. It's easy to copy and paste stuff from the Tae Kim app into the Japanese app to check conjugations of unfamiliar verbs or the meaning of a new kanji, etc.
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Post by Allie on Feb 1, 2014 19:22:26 GMT -5
The problem with how Japanese is taught, specifically kanji, is that adults learning it as a second language are often taught with the same approach used for little kids in Japan, which makes no sense. When you're dealing with little kids, they can't grasp complex concepts. So a kanji they'll learn really early on, like, say, "bird", has a ton of strokes, but they're taught it because it's a simple concept. While simpler kanji that have only two or three strokes may come many years later just because the meaning is a lot more advanced. Adults don't have that problem. They already know at least one language fluently and should be able to grasp complex concepts, so it makes a hell of a lot more sense to learn radicals and kanji in stroke order so that you can see how putting together the pieces of what you've already learned make kanji with higher stroke counts, rather than the rote memorization that kids do. ANYWAY I recommend TextFugu for those starting from scratch or close to it. You can go through quite a bit of lessons for free and decide if you like it. jisho.org/ for your dictionary needs. And I haven't started using it myself but people swear by WaniKani, which is from the same people as TextFugu. While TextFugu is general learning, WaniKani is solely about kanji and will take you much farther than TextFugu's kanji lessons. If you pay for TextFugu, you get a discount on WaniKani. Honestly, if I was going to be doing this myself, I would need the 'little kid' method, because I have severe issues with information retention... EDIT : Could someone please come up with a good, legitimate reason to learn this language when one has absolutely NO familial OR business ties to Japan? Because, even though I keep saying I don't want to learn Japanese because of the trendy/weeaboo factor, I actually kind of do want to learn it. I just need a good, legitimate, adult, practical business/culture based reason that people (myself most importantly) can respect.
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Post by nightdreamer on Feb 1, 2014 19:28:13 GMT -5
Is there a mobile app anyone can recommend? I've been learning french through duolingo and that's been pretty fun; shame it doesn't offer nihonggo courses yet.
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Post by Joseph Joestar on Feb 1, 2014 20:42:19 GMT -5
Is there a mobile app anyone can recommend? I've been learning french through duolingo and that's been pretty fun; shame it doesn't offer nihonggo courses yet. n-word, you even read my post?!?! If you've got an iphone, ipod touch, or ipad I would highly recommend the apps I mentioned - I haven't had much time to do formal study (ie, the textbooks) but I've learned a ton of new kanji and worked my way through the first five or six chapters of the Tae Kim app while waiting in line or in the car, and during waits at the airport.
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geishaboy
Full Member
Like that movie Drunken Master, minus the kung-fu
Posts: 190
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Post by geishaboy on Feb 2, 2014 0:36:47 GMT -5
I think the most important thing to remember is that there really is no short cut to learning a language. Stay away from anything that promises quick results with minimum effort. Linguistic snake oil salesmen are everywhere. Get yourself a good dictionary, work your way through as many text books as you can and try and use what you have learnt at every opportunity.
More than anything, learning Japanese just takes time. The more time you put into it, the better you will become. So start now. Today. Right fucking now.
As for kanji, the first thing you need to understand is that the current system is broken. It doesn't make a lot of sense. Just take it at face value and do your best. One of the better ways to study kanji is to familiarize yourself with the radicals and write them as much as you can. And I mean actually write them, not pump them out on your keyboard. Also manga. Working your way through manga with furigana will help you immensely. Although not always easy to come across, I'm sure there are places to find raw scans online.
Look up words that you don't know. Write those words down in a notebook along with example sentences that illustrate that words usage. Re-read your own notes constantly. Just like anything, the more work you put into something, the better the results will be.
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Post by bakudon on Feb 2, 2014 2:06:11 GMT -5
EDIT : Could someone please come up with a good, legitimate reason to learn this language when one has absolutely NO familial OR business ties to Japan? Because, even though I keep saying I don't want to learn Japanese because of the trendy/weeaboo factor, I actually kind of do want to learn it. I just need a good, legitimate, adult, practical business/culture based reason that people (myself most importantly) can respect. Can’t you just say that you’re interested in the culture, or something..? I’ve studied a bunch of languages, and I don’t have familial or business reasons for most of them. I’ve studied most simply for interest in the language and the culture behind it, and don’t really see why you would need a reason other than that.
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Post by Scylla on Feb 2, 2014 3:13:29 GMT -5
I was considering getting a subscription to one of those "online textbook" services like TextFugu, but heard mixed things. For what it's worth, if you pay for a lifetime membership to TextFugu and end up really not liking it, all you have to do is contact the creator and he'll give you a full refund. He's truly that concerned with people being pleased with it. The only complaints I've heard about it are that it isn't that useful if you're already well beyond beginner status (in which case, if you just want to learn more kanji, you may as well go straight to WaniKani) and it hasn't been updated in a long time (but, really, there's already a ton of content).
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Post by nightdreamer on Feb 2, 2014 3:58:12 GMT -5
Is there a mobile app anyone can recommend? I've been learning french through duolingo and that's been pretty fun; shame it doesn't offer nihonggo courses yet. n-word, you even read my post?!?! If you've got an iphone, ipod touch, or ipad I would highly recommend the apps I mentioned - I haven't had much time to do formal study (ie, the textbooks) but I've learned a ton of new kanji and worked my way through the first five or six chapters of the Tae Kim app while waiting in line or in the car, and during waits at the airport. Haha sorry, there has just been so many walls of text lately (that somehow contain sneak disses) that I haven't really been good at or becoming willing to read. I need to change that! Gonna check Tae Kim and Renzo then.
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Post by Allie on Feb 2, 2014 4:16:26 GMT -5
EDIT : Could someone please come up with a good, legitimate reason to learn this language when one has absolutely NO familial OR business ties to Japan? Because, even though I keep saying I don't want to learn Japanese because of the trendy/weeaboo factor, I actually kind of do want to learn it. I just need a good, legitimate, adult, practical business/culture based reason that people (myself most importantly) can respect. Can’t you just say that you’re interested in the culture, or something..? I’ve studied a bunch of languages, and I don’t have familial or business reasons for most of them. I’ve studied most simply for interest in the language and the culture behind it, and don’t really see why you would need a reason other than that. Mainly because that culture is full of xenophobic racists that would treat me think of me like absolute shit. All that aside, I'm failing miserably at trying to write out the most basic hiragana. It's getting frustrating being unable to make any progress because of my inability to make accurate marks on paper. It's like drawing all over again...
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Post by Yukito on Feb 2, 2014 7:21:39 GMT -5
Can’t you just say that you’re interested in the culture, or something..? I’ve studied a bunch of languages, and I don’t have familial or business reasons for most of them. I’ve studied most simply for interest in the language and the culture behind it, and don’t really see why you would need a reason other than that. Mainly because that culture is full of xenophobic racists that would treat me think of me like absolute shit. Excuse me? What?
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Post by Joseph Joestar on Feb 2, 2014 9:41:04 GMT -5
As for kanji, the first thing you need to understand is that the current system is broken. It doesn't make a lot of sense. Just take it at face value and do your best. One of the better ways to study kanji is to familiarize yourself with the radicals and write them as much as you can. And I mean actually write them, not pump them out on your keyboard. Also manga. Working your way through manga with furigana will help you immensely. Although not always easy to come across, I'm sure there are places to find raw scans online. I wish there was a like/retweet feature for the board because I agree with everything you said. Basically that's how I learned what I know (the manga stuff). Also I can't agree more about learning the radicals (or "primitives", as Heissig calls them). Not only do you learn the meanings of (most - some of them have no real use and are basically just components) of the Kanji that form the radicals, it makes recognizing or distinguishing similar characters possible, makes finding them in a dictionary possible, and in many cases it makes remembering them easier. I was considering getting a subscription to one of those "online textbook" services like TextFugu, but heard mixed things. For what it's worth, if you pay for a lifetime membership to TextFugu and end up really not liking it, all you have to do is contact the creator and he'll give you a full refund. He's truly that concerned with people being pleased with it. The only complaints I've heard about it are that it isn't that useful if you're already well beyond beginner status (in which case, if you just want to learn more kanji, you may as well go straight to WaniKani) and it hasn't been updated in a long time (but, really, there's already a ton of content). I apologize and hope I didn't scare anyone off - I was mis-remembering why I didn't go for it. Looking at it again, it's actually a really good deal IMO for textfugu, and like you mentioned everyone's said the creator's a great guy and really great at communication/questions and customer support. I'm having a hard time judging where to start because I'm in a really weird place. I'm not a total beginner - I know and can write hiragana and katakana, I know a couple hundred kanji by heart, know a lot of meanings of words and phrases, and know basic grammar and particles. I just really suck at grammar/particles/verbs and putting things together, and need to improve that. And of course learning Kanji seems to be something that you never really master, you just improve. Seriously, screw the on/kun-yomi stuff! How do Japanese people keep em straight? n-word, you even read my post?!?! If you've got an iphone, ipod touch, or ipad I would highly recommend the apps I mentioned - I haven't had much time to do formal study (ie, the textbooks) but I've learned a ton of new kanji and worked my way through the first five or six chapters of the Tae Kim app while waiting in line or in the car, and during waits at the airport. Haha sorry, there has just been so many walls of text lately (that somehow contain sneak disses) that I haven't really been good at or becoming willing to read. I need to change that! Gonna check Tae Kim and Renzo then. Dude, no problem. I know you're totally racist against bignose dog fart and ignore our suggestions so it's all cool. Normally I hold off on paid stuff, but the Renzo one is a good value. The flash cards are a little annoying (it's hard to tell the damn thing "I know it already, stop showing it") but I've learned a lot of kanji so far because of it. There's also a cute feature on the front screen where words float by and you can touch them to look at their entry. Mainly because that culture is full of xenophobic racists that would treat me think of me like absolute shit. It's not Japan you should worry about. It's Corria. Pokey hates everybody.
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Post by cambertian on Feb 2, 2014 12:48:13 GMT -5
Mainly because that culture is full of xenophobic racists that would treat me think of me like absolute shit. Don't a lot of English cultures also have some serious Jingoism, especially about language? You know, the whole "This is 'Murica, we don't speak Spanish" sort of deal? Grammar Nazis? That whole deal?
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Post by Allie on Feb 2, 2014 16:22:55 GMT -5
Mainly because that culture is full of xenophobic racists that would treat me think of me like absolute shit. Don't a lot of English cultures also have some serious Jingoism, especially about language? You know, the whole "This is 'Murica, we don't speak Spanish" sort of deal? Grammar Nazis? That whole deal? I'm not sure how relevant moral-cultural relativism is in this case. It just seems like some sort of "NO U!" kneejerk reaction.
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