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Post by Feynman on Mar 11, 2015 7:53:38 GMT -5
I demand video evidence of the zeppelin defeating bosses more quickly than the plane, because I do not think that's the case.
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Post by Joseph Joestar on Mar 11, 2015 15:33:35 GMT -5
I demand video evidence of the zeppelin defeating bosses more quickly than the plane, because I do not think that's the case. I'll back up what Snarboo said - the few times I tried playing as the zeppelin the first boss fight went a LOT faster, especially the first phase.
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Post by Snarboo on Mar 11, 2015 17:38:59 GMT -5
I'll try to provide video evidence! It's worth noting that in the GBA version, the Zeppelin has a more powerful shot, so I wouldn't be surprised if that was the case here, too.
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Post by moran on Mar 11, 2015 21:15:20 GMT -5
I'll admit that the zeppelin is my ship of choice. I used the plane at first, but I've found more success with the zeppelin. Coming from someone who normally tanks through games, the zeppelin has more precise control and seems to have a more powerful attack.
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Post by moran on Mar 12, 2015 10:39:45 GMT -5
Regarding Steel Empire, the GBA version is pretty hectic. A lot of enemies coming at you at once. The leveling system is different also. You need 1 P(ex in the Genesis version)to level up to 2, 2 P's to level up to 3 and so on. But then you lose your level when you die. But your bombs are replenished. The bosses are a little different too, at least the first levels. The air ship doesn't shoot missles at you, but shoots a normal bullet shot along with the shuriken looking things. And the train doesn't have the cannon the Genesis version has. It just shoots missles at you along with the turrets.
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Post by Feynman on Mar 12, 2015 11:53:56 GMT -5
Okay, I recorded a video to demonstrate what makes the Striker a good ship:
I think this demonstrates pretty darn well just how devastating the Striker actually is. In fact, I'm fairly certain this is the fastest clear of the game on YouTube!
I think the big reason the zeppelin feels stronger comes down to how people approach the game. Generally, folks hang back at mid distance, far enough to make dodging enemy fire easier and safer. Normal tactics in this kind of game, right? The zeppelin really works well with this approach. It has long range bombs that float and have a spread, which means that when you fight at range with the zeppelin you're constantly barraging the enemy with extra hits... many of them will miss, but enough will land that it creates a steady source of extra damage.
That doesn't work with the plane. The Striker's bombs fall directly down at an angle, so if you remain at a distance and fight safely, a huge chunk of your attack power is just plain being wasted, either because you're attacking from the side and your bombs aren't hitting anything at all, or because you're attacking from too high up and your main weapon is missing, while your bombs are too spread out to deal much damage. Every video I could find of the game had people using the plane that way. And if you go that route, then yeah, the zeppelin will seem like it has more damage output.
But where the Striker shines, what it can do what the zeppelin can't, is fight aggressively. The higher speed and smaller hitbox of the plane, plus the downward trajectory of the bombs, means that you can position yourself so that you hit bosses with your main weapon/options and every single one of your bombs, all at the same time, taking advantage of openings that the zeppelin cannot, either because it's too slow or too large to do so. This is a lot riskier than using the zeppelin, as it generally requires you to spend all of your time hovering only a handful of pixels away from taking massive collision damage and gives you less time to dodge attacks, but it shreds bosses much, much faster than the zeppelin does (with one or two exceptions, like the stage 2 midboss). Any advantage in raw damage that the zeppelin's individual attacks may or may not have is negated by the fact that it isn't capable of constantly unleashing its entire arsenal on one single point the way the plane can.
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Post by Snarboo on Mar 12, 2015 17:41:40 GMT -5
The Striker being a good ship was never in doubt, my point has always been that this thread wasn't giving the Zeppelin enough credit. :p It's a really powerful ship, and I think it's a testament to how well Hot-B designed this game that they took into account two completely different play styles with Steel Empire!
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Post by Snarboo on Mar 13, 2015 5:33:22 GMT -5
Alright, just beat Over Horizon! Has anyone else played this yet? It's a pretty solid game overall, and the ability to customize your ship's loadout is not something you see often in a Japanese shmup.
Also it seems I was wrong about the stats I put into my weapons: I maxed out Bomber on the Homing weapon rather than splitting it between Laser and Bomber.
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Post by Joseph Joestar on Mar 13, 2015 8:49:18 GMT -5
Alright, just beat Over Horizon! Has anyone else played this yet? It's a pretty solid game overall, and the ability to customize your ship's loadout is not something you see often in a Japanese shmup. Also it seems I was wrong about the stats I put into my weapons: I maxed out Bomber on the Homing weapon rather than splitting it between Laser and Bomber. I've only played partway through stage 2. One thing I do like about both games is the fact that you have both fore and aft guns (like Section Z, or Side Arms) rather than having to waste your primary weapon choice on it like in Gradius/etc.
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Post by Feynman on Mar 13, 2015 14:28:35 GMT -5
Over Horizon is decent, but it didn't really grab me. It's not like the game doesn't have a lot to recommend it: Weapon customization is a cool idea (and likewise the ability to edit your two option patterns), the stages are well designed, and it runs well for a Famicom shmup. The biggest flaw the game has is that it's absurdly easy... excessively so, I would say. The weapon edit function is cool, but the game wasn't balanced around it, and even if some combinations are a bit better than others, any combination of abilities for your custom weapons is going to result in them all being hilariously overpowered. It feels more like cheating than customization. The default weapons without any extra abilities added are more balanced, but even using those the game is a bit too easy, I feel.
Steel Empire is on the easy side of things as shmups go as well, but it has enough challenge to remain interesting, and I think the more balanced ships emphasizing entirely different playstyles gives the game more replay value than Over Horizon's weapon customization, which just breaks the game.
Over Horizon lacks the challenge and incentive to play better needed to make me want to play the game again and again, which I think is a vital element for a shmup to have, since they tend to be quite short. I dunno, maybe I'm being unfair and elitist? I'm no shmup master by any stretch of the imagination, but am I making the game sound easier than it is? I just felt that the game really didn't have enough teeth or enough reason to chase a higher score for me to return to it. What do you guys think about the game's difficulty?
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Post by Joseph Joestar on Mar 16, 2015 9:16:02 GMT -5
Over Horizon is decent, but it didn't really grab me. It's not like the game doesn't have a lot to recommend it: Weapon customization is a cool idea (and likewise the ability to edit your two option patterns), the stages are well designed, and it runs well for a Famicom shmup. The biggest flaw the game has is that it's absurdly easy... excessively so, I would say. The weapon edit function is cool, but the game wasn't balanced around it, and even if some combinations are a bit better than others, any combination of abilities for your custom weapons is going to result in them all being hilariously overpowered. It feels more like cheating than customization. The default weapons without any extra abilities added are more balanced, but even using those the game is a bit too easy, I feel. Steel Empire is on the easy side of things as shmups go as well, but it has enough challenge to remain interesting, and I think the more balanced ships emphasizing entirely different playstyles gives the game more replay value than Over Horizon's weapon customization, which just breaks the game. Over Horizon lacks the challenge and incentive to play better needed to make me want to play the game again and again, which I think is a vital element for a shmup to have, since they tend to be quite short. I dunno, maybe I'm being unfair and elitist? I'm no shmup master by any stretch of the imagination, but am I making the game sound easier than it is? I just felt that the game really didn't have enough teeth or enough reason to chase a higher score for me to return to it. What do you guys think about the game's difficulty? I would agree about the difficulty overall and how the options and editing can break the game, but I can't get past the ice stage boss ( -z-). I need to play games without watching TV in the background. To its credit, in addition to the stuff you listed, I like that Over Horizon does some pretty unique things (at least so far) involving the environments. The ice cubes in the ice level are really fun, IMO - it's fun trying to shoot them to crush the enemies. I also really like that the enemies die if they crash into walls and stuff - there's too many games where the enemies aren't restricted to the same boundaries you are and can just pass through objects. I beat Steel Empire on Normal but had to extend the continues and lives, I'll try and work toward a 1cc. Some parts of the game I have down pat, but others are annoying as hell - I couldn't stand the second part of Stage 6, I was having a hell of a time not getting crushed by the scenery. I did find that it's a lot easier if you use the ship that's "suited" for that stage.
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Post by Snarboo on Mar 16, 2015 19:58:29 GMT -5
I think one of the biggest reasons Over Horizon seems easier is that it's not a checkpoint shmup, unlike a majority of NES shmups. You also get infinite continues, which is another unusual move. The game gets pretty difficult in the second half, and while it never approaches the level of other NES shmups, it's still not a cakewalk. Being able to customize your weaponry, adjust your speed and fire in two directions at any time only adds to that.
It reminds me of the later Thunder Force games more than anything, even if the visuals borrow heavily from Gradius and R-Type.
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Post by derboo on Mar 17, 2015 5:58:38 GMT -5
I've been so busy/occupied with projects lately that I felt the need to work even on my commute to work, but I got some playtime on the bus today for Over Horizon. Took me a few tries to get through the second stage, but the third was really easy.
The laser weapon seems really overpowered, though, especially when you give it five points for homing. The other two on the other hand seemed weaker than the standard weapon no matter how I configured them, at least on the first power level.
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Post by Joseph Joestar on Mar 17, 2015 9:28:40 GMT -5
I've been so busy/occupied with projects lately that I felt the need to work even on my commute to work, but I got some playtime on the bus today for Over Horizon. Took me a few tries to get through the second stage, but the third was really easy. The laser weapon seems really overpowered, though, especially when you give it five points for homing. The other two on the other hand seemed weaker than the standard weapon no matter how I configured them, at least on the first power level. I was the opposite - aside from the surprise "closing gate" I didn't have too much trouble with the second level. But on level 3 I wasn't doing so hot maneuvering between the moving ice blocks, and I had a hard time dealing with the boss, since it would speed up significantly after you did enough damage, and I couldn't seem to find a good way to keep away from it or its arms. Any hints?
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Post by Joseph Joestar on Mar 19, 2015 19:33:47 GMT -5
Alright, just 1cced Steel Horizon 3DS on my first try (lost 3 lives). I'll have to try it on the harder difficulties next.
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