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Post by edmonddantes on Jan 8, 2018 22:29:55 GMT -5
When I was first drafting this topic, I thought of limiting it to just youtubers, but my chaotic mind can't stay confined without chafing.
For the two of you who haven't heard the term (and just so we're all on the same page here), Jumping the Shark, as I understood it, basically the point when a thing you used to like stops being enjoyable, which is kind of an alteration from its original meaning (long story which I won't go into here) but its what people tend to think of nowadays.
I dunno what it is but 2017 seems to be THE year for shark jumping. Or maybe its just the year I happen to be noticing it a lot due to melancholy (probably helps this is also the year my favorite cat died). Still, I figured maybe some people here would like to talk about things that Jumped some Sharks.
So what things particularly have I noticed jumping some sharks? To name a few:
Retsupurae
Note, originally I had like three paragraphs here, but I decided to limit myself to one paragraph per thing mentioned so I'll actually shut up eventually.
Anyway, Retsupurae was always kind of dubious--their original LP riffs sometimes came off as just bullying people for not being rich or for loving old games--but when they started doing Newgrounds flash games and dubious Kickstarters is when they reached a high point. However, nowadays their major output is riffing on actual oldschool adventure games like Dark Seed, King's Quest V, Phantasmagoria, Alone in the Dark etc. And these videos are basically unwatchable, taking one of the more irritating parts of their retsufrash videos and magnifying them--they basically whine that these games expect you to think and have actual storylines, whcih they then complain are "inconsistent" and "impossible to follow" after they loudly announce their refusal to read journals (on the grounds that they're "boring") and talk over cutscenes (gee, you think a plot is impossible to follow if you make zero effort to do so?) So they come off as people who just expect to instantly win everything and want everything to be stupid and simple and have zero depth, in other words like they basically hate video games.
It doesn't help that a lot of the actually-bad games they cover have already been covered (and much better) by other people, for example compare their video on Mystery of the Druids to ProbablyRichard's "Shooting Crap" episode on it.
Game Theory
Game Theory is a channel that makes me hate the thought of becoming a big-time youtuber, because that's basically what ruined this channel. Early on the video and audio quality kinda sucked and the show hadn't found its voice but there was honest enthusiasm. However after awhile it became all about the clickbait... and it always bothered me how the opening video shows the logos of systems like the Neo-Geo and the Turbografx-16 and yet 99% of their videos are about Nintendo and Matpat has demonstrated he'll only ever do videos on games that are sure to get clicks on youtube. That's basically the problem: At some point Matpat became less about compelling theories (indeed he seems to basically shrug off or shut down any and all criticism and even blatantly repeats mistakes that have already been criticized by people like Gnoggin) and more about just pushing out content--something he even tries to argue is necessary due to Youtube's algorithm! I'm not doubting he's correct in some regard, but I think good videos will stay good and be remembered even if you don't post on a regular basis. Just look at Spoony.
Bottom line I'd rather have good videos than mindless clickbait.
And now we move away from "Youtubers who jumped the shark" but into something else....
Five Nights at Freddy's
I thought of mentioning Outlast too, since I anticipated that sequel and it wound up being the most pretentious trash, but I'm not sure that's even worth mentioning.
I know FNAF has its haters, especially on this forum. I'll be the first to admit it's never been any sort of thought-provoking masterpiece (except for those who like to pay attention to background details and try to piece together a narrative--more on that in a minute since it relates to my problem). Generally, what I think interested me about FNAF (and I'll admit I didn't play it but rather watched Markiplier play it) was the same thing that makes me watch no-death runs of Gradius or other such shooters: The arcade-like thrill of seeing someone get skilled enough to overcome the increasing challenge of survival (and in Markiplier's case, to even defeat the legendary 4/20 mode). However, I'll agree with Gggmanlives that the games generally got worse with each installment--since Scott Cawthon had to think of a way to keep the concept fresh each time, but it seemed like he hit on the perfect gameplay formula the first time, as such all his new ideas seemed to always result in just outright bad design where progress in the game would depend entirely on luck.
To me though what really ruined the series was FNAF4. Okay, to this point while I liked the "storyline" theories, I always suspected Scott Cawthon was actually not writing a plot at all but always retroactively canonizing whatever Game Theory came up with--thus how GT was "largely right" about FNAF2's plot. FNAF4 was where Scott actually tried to tell a story and at this point, the series became bullshit, with the "lore" getting increasingly more idiotic and convoluted and it all turning into this dumbass drama about this one family who invented Astro Boy and used him to entertain kids at a pizzaria. And now the storyline was at the forefront and not just a minor thing you happened to notice, with the the games themselves becoming secondary. Which ironically takes away the one reason the story was ever interesting in the first place: because you had to be looking for it. Seriously nobody really cares about Purple Guy's personal issues.
The franchise should've been allowed to end with the third one, but instead he kept making them and they got dumber and dumber, just like so many movie series or long-running television shows.
I think I'll cut it here. Feel free to add your own Jump the Shark moments or tell me how right or (more likely) wrong mine are, and I'll see you the next time the good fairies allow me to get on the interwebs!
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Post by GamerL on Jan 8, 2018 23:07:34 GMT -5
As far as Youtube goes, I wish Red Letter Media put in the effort that they used to.
When they release a video it's still high quality stuff, but that's a lot less frequent than it used to be, they've slowed way down with Half In The Bag, they've gone from reviewing most big name releases in a given year to only a handful of movies, Best of The Worst videos are only about once or twice a month.
On top of that the effort they put into Half In The Bag, bringing in other people and filming little skits almost like it was a TV show has pretty much gone away, when they actually bother to make a Half in The Bag it's just them talking about whatever movie (they will never resolve the "Jay and Plinkett's gay wedding" plotline)
I think there's 3 reasons, one is that I think the failure of Space Cop kinda quashed some of their enthusiasm and two is now that they're established and have that Patreon money it's made them kinda lazy and they lack the passion of when it was all new and finally I think they're kinda burned out on modern Hollywood movies, which is understandable.
So while I wouldn't say they've "jumped the shark" the golden age of 2012/2013/2014 is past, I can understand slowing down with Half in The Bag but there really can't be more episodes of Best of The Worst? I mean it's a show where they sit around and watch movies.
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Post by Woody Alien on Jan 9, 2018 13:25:53 GMT -5
Speaking of Youtube channels, I'd say Cinema Sins. Not to be a hipster, but I first discovered them in 2012 when they had only one channel with 4 or 5 videos in it. These were short (3-5 minutes), funny, charming and to the point. Now they're bloated monstrosities that last at least 15 minutes, the humor is much more mean-spirited and several facts just plain wrong for the sake of comedy (sure, it never was actually informative, but I feel there was more actual research in the beginning), plus there are all their related projects nobody cares about, but that still are peddled with the main videos... Basically the story of every franchise that gets milked to the point of exhaustion. I read about a rant of some director (the one who made 'Looper' probably) against their channel, at first I thought that he was being a prick, but then after reading it I thought he may actually have a point in saying the Cinema Sins guys ruined everything with their mockery.
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Post by lurker on Jan 9, 2018 14:11:03 GMT -5
Speaking of Youtube channels, I'd say Cinema Sins. Not to be a hipster, but I first discovered them in 2012 when they had only one channel with 4 or 5 videos in it. These were short (3-5 minutes), funny, charming and to the point. Now they're bloated monstrosities that last at least 15 minutes, the humor is much more mean-spirited and several facts just plain wrong for the sake of comedy (sure, it never was actually informative, but I feel there was more actual research in the beginning), plus there are all their related projects nobody cares about, but that still are peddled with the main videos... Basically the story of every franchise that gets milked to the point of exhaustion. I read about a rant of some director (the one who made 'Looper' probably) against their channel, at first I thought that he was being a prick, but then after reading it I thought he may actually have a point in saying the Cinema Sins guys ruined everything with their mockery. Not to mention whenever they ask questions of the movie that were answered by the movie, like they weren't even paying attention.
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Post by jackcaeylin on Jan 9, 2018 16:02:27 GMT -5
Speaking of Youtube channels, I'd say Cinema Sins. Not to be a hipster, but I first discovered them in 2012 when they had only one channel with 4 or 5 videos in it. These were short (3-5 minutes), funny, charming and to the point. Now they're bloated monstrosities that last at least 15 minutes, the humor is much more mean-spirited and several facts just plain wrong for the sake of comedy (sure, it never was actually informative, but I feel there was more actual research in the beginning), plus there are all their related projects nobody cares about, but that still are peddled with the main videos... Basically the story of every franchise that gets milked to the point of exhaustion. I read about a rant of some director (the one who made 'Looper' probably) against their channel, at first I thought that he was being a prick, but then after reading it I thought he may actually have a point in saying the Cinema Sins guys ruined everything with their mockery. Not to mention whenever they ask questions of the movie that were answered by the movie, like they weren't even paying attention. I watched some Cinema Sins stuff and they are really horrible as you guys mentioned. They are always using the same jokes and constantly doing the "laughing noise". It feels weird, if they use the term clichee, but at almost every second video, they say the same stuff again and again. I only made a sample, It is like, if you watched one video of CinemaSins, then you watched every video of CinemaSins. -- Nigahiga, I liked his stuff, he is still great, but since one year ago, he starts to be trendy and you have to know stuff like PUBG to understand the joke. Honestly, I prefered his everyday life stuff and not the "jumping on the trend-wagon" stuff. I guess, he doesn't have ideas due to constantly releases and due to the high amount of videos, which is a shame. He is kinda the only one who is not doing the sarcastic/cynism stuff that every human likes today. Yours sincerely Jack Caeylin
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Post by GamerL on Jan 9, 2018 20:41:26 GMT -5
I haven't seen CinemaSins but speaking of Youtube stuff with Cinema in the title I've watched the Cinema Snob for 8 years now and I'm a little bothered how Brad has gotten dangerously close to "Youtube atheist" status with how he's mocked Christian movies in recent years.
It doesn't bother me on a personal level and some of it is certainly worthy of mockery but eh, his stuff used to be apolitical, now it's political, in a time when almost everything is political you cherish the stuff that's just for fun.
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Post by alphex on Jan 9, 2018 20:48:24 GMT -5
I never felt that Game Theory, Cinema Sins or Five Nights at Freddy's were ever any good or even particularly liked. You mention that about FNAF, but still.
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Post by lurker on Jan 9, 2018 20:57:03 GMT -5
I haven't seen CinemaSins but speaking of Youtube stuff with Cinema in the title I've watched the Cinema Snob for 8 years now and I'm a little bothered how Brad has gotten dangerously close to "Youtube atheist" status with how he's mocked Christian movies in recent years. It doesn't bother me on a personal level and some of it is certainly worthy of mockery but eh, his stuff used to be apolitical, now it's political, in a time when almost everything is political you cherish the stuff that's just for fun. I think he's luckily picked good targets so far. Unfortunately, politics are almost completely unavoidable when your review target is.
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Post by toei on Jan 9, 2018 21:46:14 GMT -5
Speaking of Youtube channels, I'd say Cinema Sins. Not to be a hipster, but I first discovered them in 2012 when they had only one channel with 4 or 5 videos in it. These were short (3-5 minutes), funny, charming and to the point. Now they're bloated monstrosities that last at least 15 minutes, the humor is much more mean-spirited and several facts just plain wrong for the sake of comedy (sure, it never was actually informative, but I feel there was more actual research in the beginning), plus there are all their related projects nobody cares about, but that still are peddled with the main videos... Basically the story of every franchise that gets milked to the point of exhaustion. I read about a rant of some director (the one who made 'Looper' probably) against their channel, at first I thought that he was being a prick, but then after reading it I thought he may actually have a point in saying the Cinema Sins guys ruined everything with their mockery. From what I understand, videos over 10 minutes generate more ad revenues for youtubers, which I'm sure is why they've become overlong. It's like all those ridiculous clickbait articles listing the 78 foods that are bad for your cholesterol or whatever; the way monetizing works on the web is actively encouraging bloated content. Your point about their mocking is good, too; when your job is to make fun of things, fairness goes out the window. The problem is when viewers start taking that shit for the gospel truth, and they do; you always see comments under these videos going "lol this looks so bad".
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Post by Bumpyroad on Jan 10, 2018 2:16:17 GMT -5
I haven't seen CinemaSins but speaking of Youtube stuff with Cinema in the title I've watched the Cinema Snob for 8 years now and I'm a little bothered how Brad has gotten dangerously close to "Youtube atheist" status with how he's mocked Christian movies in recent years. It doesn't bother me on a personal level and some of it is certainly worthy of mockery but eh, his stuff used to be apolitical, now it's political, in a time when almost everything is political you cherish the stuff that's just for fun. I think he's luckily picked good targets so far. Unfortunately, politics are almost completely unavoidable when your review target is. "Politics on Youtube" is an absurdity in itself and a nice meme at that.
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Post by edmonddantes on Jan 10, 2018 17:31:22 GMT -5
Cinema Snob never appealed to me, as his dry delivery is more annoying than funny, and like most Channel Awesome figures (past and present) his style tends to be misrepresenting or outright lying about the stories and contents of what he reviews in order to make a "joke."
One of my least favorite cases of this was, of all things, Bibleman.
If you've never seen the Bibleman series, its a guilty pleasure. Basically imagine Kamen Rider, except if he was a bible-themed superhero who was literally empowered by God and where each bad guy is the same actor in a new suit and the characters in-story actually acknowledge this.
So what's so bad about Snob's video?
He reviewed a VHS-only episode called The Bibleman Show, which was basically a failed pilot with an earlier concept of the character, and it was so bad even Bibleman's creator hates it. As I explained it to a friend: "Imagine someone who has never played Mega Man before, finding and reviewing a prototype Mega Man game where he has no Robot Masters, no Stage Select, no weapons or items outside of his basic blaster, and the game just eternally loops instead of ever having a boss fight with Dr. Wily. Now imagine the reviewer not only reviewing that, but acting like THE ENTIRE SERIES is like it."
That's what Snob did to Bibleman.
....
Another example I just thought of:
Dragonball (generally)
This really isn't anything new. Most people feel the decline began with GT, or even with certain sagas within Z, or even with the beginning of Z itself. For what it's worth, my own stance is the original 42 manga volumes by Akira Toriyama are good, but all the spinoff "expanded universe" material has been hit or miss. Some of it--like the Bardock TV special--is fantastic. Others--like the Cooler's Revenge movie--are some of the worst travesties ever put to frame.
But I dunno, this is more than likely a weird nostalgia talking (weird because I didn't read said manga until like 2010 or so) but when I look at where Dragonball is now, I kinda feel its... gotten stupid. Or more stupid than it already was, depending on how generous you are.
Okay, so... the plot of the latest anime, DB Super, is that there's different universes hosting an intra-universe tournament to see which universe is the strongest.
Does anyone remember the "Dragon Ball AF" hoax? Because I swear to god this exact thing was the proposed summary of Dragon Ball AF! Along with things like there being an even higher level of Super Saiyan and some of the powers of the opponents. And I dunno why but it bothers me that the new show we're getting is just like a 1990s fan hoax. It doesn't help that the concept is lame--its a damn tournament arc, no matter how much you try to spiffy it up.
But what really bothers me is this: those 42 manga volumes ended in the perfect place. Goku and co had just--with the help of LITERALLY THE ENTIRE WORLD--killed off a being from the dawn of time. Toriyama realized at this point (as is clear from the self-parody tone the Buu saga took) that this thing had gotten silly and it had gotten as big and epic and silly as it was gonna get before it crossed the line and become just stupid, and he had used every viable idea, so he ended it there-with Goku training the next generation of global defenders, not to set up a sequel, but just to let the fans know that forevermore, DragonWorld was safe from danger.
There is literally no way to continue this story without it falling flat on its face, just by virtue of concept. This is why every attempted followup has failed: because the original story had already gone to the edge, everything else will invariably feel like a step back. This is precisely why GT didn't work and its failing Super now.
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Post by GamerL on Jan 10, 2018 17:46:38 GMT -5
I don't even remember his Bibleman episode, Bibleman was fairly decent as far as Christian kid's entertainment goes and you're right that it's unfair to misrepresent it (it's unfair to misrepresent anything)
But that's my problem when he reviews Christian stuff is he is pretty smug about it, I miss when he just focused mainly on exploitation films, horror movies and porn.
As for Channel Awesome in general, I miss the original TGWTG website (I've always despised the new one and never visit it, I just watch the stuff on Youtube), that whole operation has always been cheesy but it was pretty funny, the golden age of it all has been over for years though.
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Post by edmonddantes on Jan 10, 2018 18:14:33 GMT -5
Yeah, TGWTG is basically a cluster of JTS moments all on its own. I was never a huge fan of most of its reviewers, but the ones I did occasionally watch, Nostalgia Critic was hit or miss--he would have one funny review for every five annoying ones (and any time he reviewed something I was familiar with, I would get annoyed at the afformentioned misrepresentations and inaccuracies), but I agree with people who dislike his post-retirement reviews. My IRL best friend Geo says he feels the supporting cast feels out of place, and I tend to agree. The Sailor Moon review was when I called it quits with him though. I used to like Spoony, but actually had to (due to ghetto internet) stop watching when his content became nothing but livestreams of games. I can watch or download 30-minute videos, but 3 hour streams? At least his earlier stuff is numerous and still good (yes I actually like his vlogs, he's basically the only vlogger I watch. I don't even like my own vlogs, but I like his). These days the only TGWTG current and former associates I still watch are Linkara, Weird Video Games (no longer associated), Phelous (no longer associated), and every once in awhile, Obscurus Lupa (no longer associated). The irony is that in their cases, they really haven't changed except in making improvements to their formula (though some people hate that Phelous now reviews cheapo cartoons instead of horror movies, I don't mind this myself). The rest either cover content I'm not interested in, or else I personally can't stand the reviewer. I've been known to hold up Bennett the Sage (particularly Anime Abandon) as pretty much the worst reviewer ever. I've tried him several times but every single video of his I watch is him nitpicking minor stuff. I once did a response video to his Iria Zeiram the Animation review, but all I have to point out is he comes off like he's basically unable to follow a storyline--he's always going on about how he's confused because of some unimportant tangential element (seriously he lost the plot on Iria because he saw computers on desks in the background of one scene--computers that are NOT plot points in any way and are only a background detail). Probably the best example of everything wrong with him is his crossover with Film Brain though (who has the exact same problem and who I also have no respect for). Two reviewers I'm kinda on the fence about are Weird Video Games and Lost in Adaptation aka The Dom Reviews. The former is hilarious but too many of his videos rely on "whoa Japan is weird!" humor which makes him come off as subtly xenophobic. The latter misses a lot of nuances and I feel is thin-skinned, always getting upset over supposed racial/gender-insensitivity. I did a video on his take on Ian Fleming's Goldfinger which demonstrates some of this, if you're interested. Nevertheless, I still like the guy, I just wish he would worry more about understanding the things he reads/watches and less on just finding things offensive. Also anytime someone criticizes or makes a questionable comment about J.R.R. Tolkien or his works, I tend to immediately begin suspecting their worth. (The critics, I mean--the works of JRR Tolkien are basically beyond reproach except by other Oxford Deans who studied mythology).
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Post by lurker on Jan 10, 2018 21:23:47 GMT -5
I don't even remember his Bibleman episode, Bibleman was fairly decent as far as Christian kid's entertainment goes and you're right that it's unfair to misrepresent it (it's unfair to misrepresent anything) But that's my problem when he reviews Christian stuff is he is pretty smug about it, I miss when he just focused mainly on exploitation films, horror movies and porn. As for Channel Awesome in general, I miss the original TGWTG website (I've always despised the new one and never visit it, I just watch the stuff on Youtube), that whole operation has always been cheesy but it was pretty funny, the golden age of it all has been over for years though. He still does quite a few exploitation reviews and a lot of the religious movies he reviews are practically exploitation (especially when he covers Estus Pirkle's stuff, which actually involved an exploitation director).
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Post by edmonddantes on Jan 12, 2018 20:17:39 GMT -5
So a few other things I thought of.
Rumiko Takahashi (maybe?)
Ranma 1/2 is the best anime/manga ever made and was what got me into the mediums, and for a long time Rumiko Takahashi seemed like a beacon of creativity. Even after becoming familiar with anime/manga cliches, I'm only more impressed with her work (I never realized how much of Ranma was defying or making fun of convention before), and her earlier stuff didn't disappoint. This woman wrote about aliens playing tag, mermaid skin that can either kill you or make you immortal, girls who time travel if they get engulfed in flames...
Now, Inu-Yasha was still a pretty good story, but being by Rumiko Takahashi, it felt like a step down. For one the story was a retread of one of her Rumic World stories, Fire Tripper, and the characters were all Ranma's cast playing cosplay. And the story was just another "adventurers hunting for a magic jewel" cliche. From anyone else, it would be okay, but knowing Takahashi used to be downright weird, this felt like she was becoming too normal.
I still liked it, don't get me wrong, but I can only hope Rin-ne (which I haven't read yet) is a return to form for her. Anyone can write a fight story, but only Rumiko Takahashi can do weird gender-bending antics. It would be like if Hideo Kojima made a platform game but it was nothing but a run-of-the-mill Mario ripoff.
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