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Post by wyrdwad on Jan 13, 2018 19:11:04 GMT -5
Well, don't get me wrong: if the puzzles were solvable entirely from in-game clues, that would be considerably better, and up the game from like, a 9 to a 10 for me. The retranslation is a huge boon specifically because of this, and I intend to one day play through it with that retranslation -- I just haven't felt the need to yet, since I've found the game enjoyable enough as-is.
I definitely get where you're coming from, and I would never suggest creating a game quite THAT obtuse again, as CV2 definitely crosses a line of good game design sense (at least, by modern standards). La-Mulana skirts that line, but again, as with games like Myst and the like, nothing in La-Mulana can't be solved through in-game clues, it's just very unlikely you WILL solve them without the game overstaying its welcome in the process. But that, to me, is wholly acceptable game design, and is even rather welcome in an era when the standard is for everything to be spelled out for you like you're a freaking idiot (I still hate that the Zelda games started putting cracks in the walls in places you can bomb, and wish they'd go back to making those walls look identical to non-bombable ones, forcing you to regard everything you see with suspicion and wonder).
As for the point you made about Metroid, I will say that other games have executed that sense of lonely emptiness better than CV2 since, with Super Metroid in particular being a perfect example (the entire opening of the game before you acquire the Morph Ball is ridiculously eerie!). I'm just not sure I've played any games BEFORE that that pulled it off quite so successfully, so CV2 kind of introduced me to that concept.
There was at least one game release in Japan before CV2 that managed to be even creepier in this sense, but I didn't play it until 2017: "A Life M36 Planet: MotherBrain has been aliving." That game features towns which have been destroyed by the Mother Brain, and when you're walking through them, they are empty -- like the last few towns in CV2 before Dracula's Castle -- but they're also DEAD SILENT. No music, no sound effects, nothing -- not until you leave. And maaaan is that ever eerie! Good on Pixel Co., since that game is from 1987 -- for the era, that had to have been an amazing experience.
-Tom
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Post by Deleted on Jan 13, 2018 23:19:36 GMT -5
A lot of people didn't care for Simon's Quest back in 1988, so...yeah.
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Post by wyrdwad on Jan 13, 2018 23:35:32 GMT -5
A lot of people didn't care for Simon's Quest back in 1988, so...yeah. That's certainly true, but the general impression of Simon's Quest back in 1988 was positive -- more people liked it than disliked it, as evidenced by user polls in magazines that consistently ranked it as one of the top ten NES games for several years. The same was true of Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles 1, Zelda 2, and Mario 2, all of which have since become "cool to hate on," but all of which were considered must-haves back in the day. -Tom
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Post by Deleted on Jan 13, 2018 23:44:49 GMT -5
Yeah, but kids also have a habit of convincing themselves that they like bad things when they're part of something they already like.
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Post by eatersthemanfool on Jan 13, 2018 23:49:49 GMT -5
I mean I did play the shit out of Zelda 2 when it was new.
I think there was also that whole scarcity thing. Once you got a game, that was your game and you weren't getting another one for a while.
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Post by wyrdwad on Jan 14, 2018 0:00:13 GMT -5
Yeah, but kids also have a habit of convincing themselves that they like bad things when they're part of something they already like. I don't really think that's the reason these games were popular, though. I mean, all the games I just listed except TMNT are among my favorite games on the NES, and TMNT is a respectable game that I still go back to from time to time -- and while I'm certainly no litmus test for popularity, given my general proclivity toward underdog games, I can absolutely see a high level of quality design and innovation in all of these titles. I can 100% get behind any of them, and would still recommend them all to any NES gamer even today. I might give a caveat that they "may not have aged too well and are often disliked by modern gamers" or something, but I still think they're games that defensibly belong on a list of top NES games. I just think modern gamers have lost some perspective on the industry, and tend to forget that there have been a lot of advances not just in technology but also in game design theory and execution over the decades since these games were developed. As such, I feel it's inappropriate to hold any of them to modern standards, and that anyone who attempts to play games from this era should do so through the lens of when they were created (unless stated otherwise, e.g. when a review says a game "still holds up to this day" or something). Tl;dr, I feel that retro gaming takes a certain "retro mindset" to fully appreciate, and not everyone is willing or able to put themselves in that mindset. But if you can, there's a lot of greatness to be found from games that "show their age" when viewed through a modern lens. -Tom
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Post by Bumpyroad on Jan 14, 2018 1:07:06 GMT -5
if the puzzles were solvable entirely from in-game clues, that would be considerably better That is, if you can't find any of the books in-game. One of them says: "To replenish earth, kneel by the lake with a blue crystal", and another one states: "Wait for a soul with a red crystal on Deborah Cliff." I don't see why you wouldn't try ducking with the crystal, if nothing else works. Finding those books is the biggest challenge here i think, but once you get at least one, it gives you an idea how to obtain the others too.
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Post by wyrdwad on Jan 14, 2018 1:44:44 GMT -5
True. But those aren't the most well-translated clues, nor is the player ever made aware that the dead-end in question is Deborah Cliff unless they pay VERY careful attention to the game map... which wasn't included in the U.S. release (but was featured in Nintendo Power as a fold-out, at least!).
Admittedly, I had forgotten that there WERE actually some in-game clues to solving those particular "puzzles," however, which only furthers my incredulity that so many people hate on Simon's Quest these days. Simon's Quest is so cool, man! I wish we had more Castlevania games like it.
I guess it's like the whole "I am Error" thing in Zelda 2. Everybody makes fun of the game for that, but, like... that's the dude's name, and you're actually sent on a quest to deliver a letter to Error at one point, so it becomes extremely important that you know who and where Error is, making his statement TOTALLY justified! People just seem to jump to conclusions with old games, then latch onto every single perceived negative point about them that they come across, without fully exploring what the reasoning may be behind those gameplay decisions.
-Tom
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Post by Bumpyroad on Jan 14, 2018 2:12:36 GMT -5
Admittedly, I had forgotten that there WERE actually some in-game clues to solving those particular "puzzles," however, which only furthers my incredulity that so many people hate on Simon's Quest these days. Simon's Quest is so cool, man! I wish we had more Castlevania games like it. Castlevania II is ok, but it reminds me a bit about Ys I on the system, that game is all over the place when things get down to pathfinding.
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Post by Owlman on Jan 14, 2018 4:48:40 GMT -5
CV2 always struck me as the kind of game that has a bunch of really good ideas but lacklustre execution. It's not as bizarre as the MSX version of CV1, though (if played after playing the NES version).
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Post by wyrdwad on Jan 14, 2018 4:59:39 GMT -5
CV2 always struck me as the kind of game that has a bunch of really good ideas but lacklustre execution. It's not as bizarre as the MSX version of CV1, though (if played after playing the NES version). Heh. That's another unpopular opinion on my part, but I'll say right now: I *adore* the MSX version of Castlevania, whereas... I honestly don't really like the NES version of it anymore. I feel like the MSX version should have been the standard, as it's just a spectacularly well-designed game that's kind of unlike anything else from the era. I don't think I'll ever stop urging anyone who hasn't played it to give it a shot, as I can't stress enough just how different a game it is from its NES predecessor, and even if you don't end up loving it as much as I do, you should at least find it to be an interesting experiment that's well worth your time. -Tom
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Post by GamerL on Jan 14, 2018 6:27:35 GMT -5
I guess it's like the whole "I am Error" thing in Zelda 2. Everybody makes fun of the game for that, but, like... that's the dude's name, and you're actually sent on a quest to deliver a letter to Error at one point, so it becomes extremely important that you know who and where Error is, making his statement TOTALLY justified! People just seem to jump to conclusions with old games, then latch onto every single perceived negative point about them that they come across, without fully exploring what the reasoning may be behind those gameplay decisions. -Tom I believe "Error" was a misspelling of "Errol" so it's still a mistake that resulted in a surprisingly existential statement. CV2 always struck me as the kind of game that has a bunch of really good ideas but lacklustre execution. It's not as bizarre as the MSX version of CV1, though (if played after playing the NES version). Yeah, I can see what they were going for, lots of good ideas, but it needed an extra coat of polish. That's one thing I love about Order of Ecclesia though is it borrowed some of the ideas from 2 but refined them. If nothing else 2 has an absolutely stellar soundtrack though.
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Post by wyrdwad on Jan 14, 2018 6:32:24 GMT -5
I believe "Error" was a misspelling of "Errol" so it's still a mistake that resulted in a surprisingly existential statement. No, it was definitely meant to be Error -- he and the character Bagu are stated to be best friends, and ironically, Bagu is the actual error, as his name is very clearly meant to have been "Bug," but was mistranslated. Basically, they're two best friends named Bug and Error. It's sort of an awkward joke, which was made even more awkward when it got lost in translation. -Tom
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Post by GamerL on Jan 14, 2018 7:03:30 GMT -5
Basically, they're two best friends named Bug and Error. It's sort of an awkward joke, which was made even more awkward when it got lost in translation. -Tom Ohhhhhh, I get it.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 14, 2018 8:17:04 GMT -5
But that, to me, is wholly acceptable game design, and is even rather welcome in an era when the standard is for everything to be spelled out for you like you're a freaking idiot (I still hate that the Zelda games started putting cracks in the walls in places you can bomb, and wish they'd go back to making those walls look identical to non-bombable ones, forcing you to regard everything you see with suspicion and wonder). I’ve played through the original Legend if Zelda a few times- both quests. I’m not a simpleton - yet I don’t get how randomly bombing walls is supposed to provide any enjoyment. It made certain dungeons absolutely tedious until their layouts were memorised for subsequent playthroughs. I dislike intense handholding in any modern game but having to resort to Nintendo Power for Simon’s Quest or randomly bombing walls in the original Zelda is a sign of flawed game design. I do love both games for the record- but Tom, you always seem to have difficulty accepting that just because you can tolerate asinine game design doesn’t make it perfectly acceptable to all.
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