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Post by ommadawnyawn2 on Jan 14, 2018 9:27:02 GMT -5
As much as I bashed CV2 a remake or further hacking to it would be nice to see, like with many other flawed but interesting old games but it's more of a gamble for devs and publishers.
You can of course design a world so that wall cracks aren't needed, it just needs good visual, audio (remember link's awakening?) and dialogue clues.
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Post by cj iwakura on Jan 14, 2018 10:31:35 GMT -5
I liked the song a lot.
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Post by Bumpyroad on Jan 14, 2018 14:03:27 GMT -5
Monster. "You don't belong in this world!"
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Post by wyrdwad on Jan 14, 2018 16:12:14 GMT -5
I’ve played through the original Legend if Zelda a few times- both quests. I’m not a simpleton - yet I don’t get how randomly bombing walls is supposed to provide any enjoyment. It made certain dungeons absolutely tedious until their layouts were memorised for subsequent playthroughs. I dislike intense handholding in any modern game but having to resort to Nintendo Power for Simon’s Quest or randomly bombing walls in the original Zelda is a sign of flawed game design. I do love both games for the record- but Tom, you always seem to have difficulty accepting that just because you can tolerate asinine game design doesn’t make it perfectly acceptable to all. If I can accept it, though, isn't that the definition of acceptable? As long as at least one person enjoys the mechanics in a game, then they are not without merit. And I definitely enjoy the mystery of not knowing where secrets are -- I enjoy bombing a wall, not knowing in advance if it's going to break, because if it then does, that's IMMENSELY satisfying. And there's really nothing about that should be controversial. I feel I'm able to justify my viewpoint quite well. I guess to put it another way, and to paraphrase you: "just because you can't tolerate perceivedly asinine game design doesn't make it unacceptable." ...Not trying to be confrontational here. I just feel that people are often much too hard on old-school game design choices. And the only thing I'm trying to convey in these posts is that these old "questionable" choices are not without merit, and should not be dismissed outright as "bad." To loop this back around to the OT: I do not like "I Am the Wind," but I would never, EVER suggest replacing it. It's a part of the game, like it or not, and as long as there's one person out there who thinks it's perfect as-is, then as far as I'm concerned, it is. -Tom
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Post by GamerL on Jan 14, 2018 17:26:01 GMT -5
Not giving players some clue as to walls you can bomb is total bullshit and would go over like a lead balloon with today's gamers, it's literally impossible they would bring a mechanic like that back.
Remember in Batman Arkham Asylum they hid a clue for the sequel behind a wall you could bomb but with no indication you could do so and literally no one discovered it despite the game being played by millions, because why would you bomb a random, seemingly normal wall? The developers eventually had to reveal the secret themselves when the cat was already out of the bag on the sequel.
That just not the way gamers minds work at all these days, especially if we're talking complex 3D environments, I mean it's one thing in a 2D game, but would be absurd in a 3D one.
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Post by wyrdwad on Jan 14, 2018 18:28:15 GMT -5
The only reason no one discovered it is because that's not a game-wide mechanic. If there weren't just one unmarked wall you could bomb, but DOZENS or HUNDREDS of them, I'm sure it would've been discovered almost immediately. But if you're playing a game where literally everything is marked except that ONE THING, then of course no one is going to find it. I agree that reintroducing a mechanic like this in modern games would be met with a lot of disapproval... at first. But if you've got a stubborn game developer who just does it anyway, regardless of player complaints, I'm sure players would get conditioned to accept it after only one or two games. Whether or not that's a good idea is debatable. But personally, I'm all for player-hostile game design. The best games, IMHO, are developed for the people developing them, and no one else. And I always applaud developers who have the chutzpah to include game mechanics that virtually no one else likes, because if you're going to put your heart and soul into making a game, you might as well make it the way YOU want, regardless of popular opinion. Be a pioneer! You might go out of business really quickly, but at least you'll have left your mark on the industry beforehand. (This whole conversation reminds me of another thing I'd love to see that'll probably never happen: the return of the bump system from Ys I & II... in a 3D Ys game. I really, really want to play that, but I think the chances of Falcom -- or anyone else -- ever doing it are pretty much nil. But even if no one else enjoyed it, I'm pretty sure I'd love it! Heheh.) -Tom
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Post by GamerL on Jan 14, 2018 19:28:23 GMT -5
Modern games are too complicated for it, there's just too many walls, there has to be some sort of clue.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 14, 2018 19:43:23 GMT -5
If I can accept it, though, isn't that the definition of acceptable? As long as at least one person enjoys the mechanics in a game, then they are not without merit. And I definitely enjoy the mystery of not knowing where secrets are -- I enjoy bombing a wall, not knowing in advance if it's going to break, because if it then does, that's IMMENSELY satisfying. And there's really nothing about that should be controversial. I feel I'm able to justify my viewpoint quite well. I guess to put it another way, and to paraphrase you: "just because you can't tolerate perceivedly asinine game design doesn't make it unacceptable." ...Not trying to be confrontational here. I just feel that people are often much too hard on old-school game design choices. And the only thing I'm trying to convey in these posts is that these old "questionable" choices are not without merit, and should not be dismissed outright as "bad." To loop this back around to the OT: I do not like "I Am the Wind," but I would never, EVER suggest replacing it. It's a part of the game, like it or not, and as long as there's one person out there who thinks it's perfect as-is, then as far as I'm concerned, it is. -Tom In retrospect I think I wrote that last comment and it came out rather asshole-ish so my apologies Tom. You are quite right that you weren't being confrontational so please accept my full apology if I came across that way myself. Re: I Am the Wind - I have to admit the first time I finished the game I found it a bit odd (I was like, 15 or something) yet it didn't really bother me all that much - I'd heard way more awful music in games at that stage that was a lot more inappropriate. I was actually more shocked when I finished the Xbox port that they had removed the song. I guess there were rights issues with the vocalist or the song writer (Rika Muranka if I am right). I'll not knock the writer though, she also (if memory recalls) wrote "The Best is Yet to Come" from MGS1 and "Snake Eater" from MGS3 and I love both of those for different reasons.
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Post by 8 Bit Dreams on Jan 14, 2018 20:34:19 GMT -5
The only reason no one discovered it is because that's not a game-wide mechanic. If there weren't just one unmarked wall you could bomb, but DOZENS or HUNDREDS of them, I'm sure it would've been discovered almost immediately. But if you're playing a game where literally everything is marked except that ONE THING, then of course no one is going to find it. I agree that reintroducing a mechanic like this in modern games would be met with a lot of disapproval... at first. But if you've got a stubborn game developer who just does it anyway, regardless of player complaints, I'm sure players would get conditioned to accept it after only one or two games. Whether or not that's a good idea is debatable. But personally, I'm all for player-hostile game design. The best games, IMHO, are developed for the people developing them, and no one else. And I always applaud developers who have the chutzpah to include game mechanics that virtually no one else likes, because if you're going to put your heart and soul into making a game, you might as well make it the way YOU want, regardless of popular opinion. Be a pioneer! You might go out of business really quickly, but at least you'll have left your mark on the industry beforehand. (This whole conversation reminds me of another thing I'd love to see that'll probably never happen: the return of the bump system from Ys I & II... in a 3D Ys game. I really, really want to play that, but I think the chances of Falcom -- or anyone else -- ever doing it are pretty much nil. But even if no one else enjoyed it, I'm pretty sure I'd love it! Heheh.) -Tom Fairune 1+2 would like to have moment of Ys time.
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Post by wyrdwad on Jan 14, 2018 20:35:32 GMT -5
Oh? Do the Fairune games do that? I might need to check them out! -Tom
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Post by 8 Bit Dreams on Jan 14, 2018 20:40:12 GMT -5
Oh? Do the Fairune games do that? I might need to check them out! -Tom Ysssss they doooooo!!!!!
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Post by toei on Jan 14, 2018 21:28:11 GMT -5
With regards to Zelda, you can at least make an educated guess as to which walls to try bombing by looking at the map. I prefer the convenience of the cracks, but it's not THAT random.
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Post by toei on Jan 14, 2018 21:35:16 GMT -5
Oh, and I love the bump mechanic in Ys, I find it extremely strange that people complain about it. Being able to just position yourself and run through a corridor full of enemies in a second is great, and so much FASTER. But you know what? I think modern gamers could absolutely accept it in a 3D game... IF you replace the sword with a lance. I think people have trouble accepting the idea that you carry a sword but don't get to slash and stab with it. But charging at someone with a lance is expected, and if they wearing armor and it's done in a cartoony style, people will accept that you bounce off the armor a little and charge repeatedly.
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Post by eatersthemanfool on Jan 14, 2018 23:24:59 GMT -5
Yea I'm of the mind that the big obvious cracks in the walls are a bit much, but there definitely needs to be some sort of clue, at least that there's something in the general area to find.
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Post by Jungyin on Jan 15, 2018 0:20:40 GMT -5
Oh? Do the Fairune games do that? I might need to check them out! -Tom Ysssss they doooooo!!!!! It's a bit different than how Ys I&II does it though. It's purely level based, while Ys I&II also takes positioning into account (ramming an enemy directly head on can damage you while ramming from off centre or from any other direction prevents that).
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