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Post by ZenithianHero on Jul 11, 2018 18:56:10 GMT -5
I think some of the 8-bit ones are being worked on too by a contributor but they haven't been submitted yet. Just to clarify things, I'm the guy who's working on the reviews for the 8-bit games (I also reviewed 3D Blast, which I'm looking forward to see go up). My plan is to review every 8-bit game bar Spinball and Mean Bean Machine, since neither are from genres I'm into. So basically I'm doing: -Sonic 1 (review written) -Sonic 2 (review written) -Sonic Chaos (review written) -Sonic Triple Trouble (taking notes, playing through a 2nd time as Tails) -Sonic Blast (not yet played) -Tails Skypatrol (review written) -Tails Adventures (review half-written, needs cleaning up) -Sonic Drift 1 (not yet played) -Sonic Drift 2 (not yet played) -Sonic Labyrinth (not yet played) I'm gonna wait till I've written all the reviews before I submit them, since I want to make sure that there's no contradictions between them. I also like having more time to tweak them, just in case there's something I feel could be better written. I'm a little over the halfway point, which is pretty impressive given how I've been working on these for a month, so I should have these done in a couple of weeks. Looking forward to the rest of the reviews (and as someone who considersaid Sonic 4 to be an offensively bad game, I sympathise with the pain of having to play that thing again). Mean Bean on Game Gear has Nazo Puyo's puzzle mission mode that the Genesis version doesn't have. Spinball has same zones but different level design and bonus stage. The Genesis version articles maybe mention them probably not worth an article of their own. You are a way, way kinder man than I am. My recent foray into Sonic re-playing was short lived, because I wound up feeling like most of the classic Sonics are pretty basic platformers that soon get... almost as repetitive as Mega Man games honestly, except at least Mega Man tends to be short n' sweet and a feel of depth, Sonic tends to stay basic throughout and the later Genesis games feel like they go on too long (I remember an old review pointing out the fact that some levels in Sonic & Knuckles are basically impossible to beat before getting a Time Up unless you really hussle or use glitches and play absolutely perfectly). Sonic Adventure and the other 3D sonics can just screw themselves altogether. Seriously I don't get how anyone considered those games classics. YOU CAN FALL THROUGH THE FLOOR for fricks sake! Sonic 3 had some pacing issue. Carnival Night and Sandopolis is pushing it on the time, cannot say I ever have to cheese any of them. I consider Sandopolis act 2 to be one of the most brilliant levels in the classic era. Everything was stacked against you and there's urgency you rarely saw in the series since Labyrinth or so (the most underwater of levels). Carnival Night's fault is how everything is working against you. There's always bumpers and gimmicks that halt your progress, it's nearly opposite of similar zones (Casino Night traps you but at least you can ring grind!) I don't remember falling through floors in Adventure games and Heroes. They have their own problems but I don't think they were ever unplayable whenever I revisited them over the years. I think Adventure 1 is a classic. I just adore the way that game was designed. Also one of the only 3D Sonic games you can finish the levels without those homing attack chains and the game had a nice mix of platforming and speed it wasn't bias in a direction like later Sonic games. The story is also classic-inspired giving us one last piece of lore while introducing its own set of modern era setting. Heroes has some neat zone ideas. I love playing Hang Castle for example. Oh would I like a remaster that re-balances some aspects of the game. |
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Post by spanky on Jul 11, 2018 19:32:20 GMT -5
Upon replaying it...Sonic 3 really does feel like half a game. I remember playing it as a kid and thinking it was so lame all Knuckles did was activate a trap then leave.
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Post by 🧀Son of Suzy Creamcheese🧀 on Jul 12, 2018 1:06:37 GMT -5
(I remember an old review pointing out the fact that some levels in Sonic & Knuckles are basically impossible to beat before getting a Time Up unless you really hussle or use glitches and play absolutely perfectly). Sorry, but that reviewer is absolutely terrible at the game. That's in no way accurate. Hot take: Sonic 1 (MD) had the best special levels. They're all awful, so that's not saying much. |
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Post by Jerry Orbach on Jul 15, 2018 1:50:23 GMT -5
Thanks for finally covering this series, hoping for the rest of Mega Drive games and Mania at least! Yeah, especially since the XBLA versions released individually around the same time, which are otherwise the same, can combine. Well, not really of course, the S&K release just has ROMs for S3&K and S2&K which become accessible if you have Sonic 2 and Sonic 3. S3&K was also ported to Retro Engine, like CD, 1 and 2, but Sega decided not to release it. They also left it out of their newest collection for some reason. Apparently there are some legal issues regarding the music? EDIT: more info here: Backbone's Mike Mika is a recurring guest on the Back in my Play podcast. In one of his appearances ( probably the first one?) he revealed the only reason they didn't include the combined Sonic 3 & Knuckles in SUGC was because Sega nixed it, presumably so they could sell it separately. I don't know if he was supposed to disclose that information or not. |
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Post by blackdrazon on Jul 15, 2018 3:55:14 GMT -5
Sonic 3 typo: "You can now play as Tails alone, and he has the ability to play, allowing him to explore areas that Sonic can’t."
"play" should be "fly." Actually had me confused for a minute!
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Post by toei on Jul 15, 2018 15:55:57 GMT -5
Sonic 3 typo: "You can now play as Tails alone, and he has the ability to play, allowing him to explore areas that Sonic can’t." "play" should be "fly." Actually had me confused for a minute! You can play as Tails, and HE can play as YOU! Spooky. |
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Post by edmonddantes on Jul 16, 2018 1:47:10 GMT -5
I don't remember falling through floors in Adventure games and Heroes. They have their own problems but I don't think they were ever unplayable whenever I revisited them over the years. Nevertheless, its a commonly reported phenomenon and video footage of it exists, along with other technical issues. First time I played Sonic Adventure (all my experience is with the Gamecube version BTW) I wound up finding a lot of annoying issues. One part that made me facepalm--and I forget what level this was, but I think it was inside Robotnik's ship--is this part where you're working your way down, and there's moving platforms you can jump on. Thing is, it LOOKS like you can just jump down the shaft... but if you try that, you die, with no clear indication of what killed you (indeed, even if you safely land on a moving platform that's below you). Turns out you have to go ACROSS the shaft and only go down through pathways the game specifically wants you to take. That. Is. STUPID. But honestly I probably wouldn't mind this stuff so much except for one thing, something I realize last month when I played Sonic Adventure (which I had to rebuy because I sold my original copy) again.... .... the game is just kinda boring. I mean, most people tend to say "Sonic's levels are good, everyone else is a mixed bag" but honestly, I find even Sonic's pretty boring (I actually have the most fun with Amy's since her levels basically turn into a Clock Tower game). I mean, I LOVE speed, I like racing games and the feeling of going fast. But somehow, Sonic is just dull. And last time I played (and also watched some videos of later 3D games) I figured out the problem: Sega basically took the path of making the speed more of a spectacle. You hit a booster and watch Sonic go through a loop (which, as IIRC ProJared pointed out, can sometimes glitch out and cause Sonic to come to dead stops during "cinematic" moments), but even when it works properly.... its just, you're watching Sonic be cool, without yourself having much input. Even the classic games, the speed and spectacle was something you had to work for, you didn't just get it for free. The newer Sonics give me the feeling that I'm just there to watch Sonic be cool and its supposed to impress me. The thing is, it doesn't, and it actually bores me. Like if you have a preteen cousin over and he rips the controller out of your hand (without asking permission) so he can show off his mad skillz while you're just trying to have fun, and it winds up instead souring the experience for you because the little asshole couldn't contain his ego. It's not like Sonic running through loops is all that impressive either--that's basic momentum physics, even real-life cars can do that. I had a similar problem with Devil May Cry 3--the cutscenes are just too long and there's no point watching Dante be badass and kicking ass in a cutscene when it's what you do in the main effing game, and honestly is one reason I still prefer the original DMC, since again, you have to earn the badassery, not just watch someone else be good at it. Hope all of this made sense. This isn't to hold the Genesis Sonics up as untouchable classics--I quickly got a little bored of them on my recent visit because in retrospect they're fairly basic platformers--but at least I can see why people liked them at the time and every once in awhile they are fun to play. I just don't get the modern Sonics (even the modern 2D ones seem to have the same problems I described earlier) at all. Ironically, NiGHTs Into Dreams was a far more satisfying speed-focused experience. |
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Post by spanky on Jul 17, 2018 20:01:35 GMT -5
So what does everyone think of Mania Plus? I put down 5 bucks for the DLC. I haven't played much yet - just up to Flying Battery in the Encore mode.
Mighty and Ray are "nice to haves" but the game, even in Encore mode doesn't really feel like it's built with them in mind. It's kinda fun to play around with Ray's flight though. The Encore mode has something going with it's lives system but I wish how you cycled in your bench characters felt a little less random. Encore is a bit more difficult so far but not much - the 3D bonus rounds are definitely tougher and it's much harder to find those rings now as well. The signpost bonus, which is a pinball game sounds awesome at first but I don't like the table design and the physics seem sort of weird. It's too bad because a pinball themed bonus game in Sonic should be a slam dunk.
Not sure how I feel about this yet but I feel like it's worth the 5 bucks.
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Post by ZenithianHero on Jul 17, 2018 20:58:27 GMT -5
spankyI updated and haven't gotten around to it yet. I should talk about it more tomorrow or so. Octopath is distracting me. I don't remember falling through floors in Adventure games and Heroes. They have their own problems but I don't think they were ever unplayable whenever I revisited them over the years. Nevertheless, its a commonly reported phenomenon and video footage of it exists, along with other technical issues. First time I played Sonic Adventure (all my experience is with the Gamecube version BTW) I wound up finding a lot of annoying issues. One part that made me facepalm--and I forget what level this was, but I think it was inside Robotnik's ship--is this part where you're working your way down, and there's moving platforms you can jump on. Thing is, it LOOKS like you can just jump down the shaft... but if you try that, you die, with no clear indication of what killed you (indeed, even if you safely land on a moving platform that's below you). Turns out you have to go ACROSS the shaft and only go down through pathways the game specifically wants you to take. That. Is. STUPID. But honestly I probably wouldn't mind this stuff so much except for one thing, something I realize last month when I played Sonic Adventure (which I had to rebuy because I sold my original copy) again.... .... the game is just kinda boring. I mean, most people tend to say "Sonic's levels are good, everyone else is a mixed bag" but honestly, I find even Sonic's pretty boring (I actually have the most fun with Amy's since her levels basically turn into a Clock Tower game). I mean, I LOVE speed, I like racing games and the feeling of going fast. But somehow, Sonic is just dull. And last time I played (and also watched some videos of later 3D games) I figured out the problem: Sega basically took the path of making the speed more of a spectacle. You hit a booster and watch Sonic go through a loop (which, as IIRC ProJared pointed out, can sometimes glitch out and cause Sonic to come to dead stops during "cinematic" moments), but even when it works properly.... its just, you're watching Sonic be cool, without yourself having much input. Even the classic games, the speed and spectacle was something you had to work for, you didn't just get it for free. The newer Sonics give me the feeling that I'm just there to watch Sonic be cool and its supposed to impress me. The thing is, it doesn't, and it actually bores me. Like if you have a preteen cousin over and he rips the controller out of your hand (without asking permission) so he can show off his mad skillz while you're just trying to have fun, and it winds up instead souring the experience for you because the little asshole couldn't contain his ego. It's not like Sonic running through loops is all that impressive either--that's basic momentum physics, even real-life cars can do that. I had a similar problem with Devil May Cry 3--the cutscenes are just too long and there's no point watching Dante be badass and kicking ass in a cutscene when it's what you do in the main effing game, and honestly is one reason I still prefer the original DMC, since again, you have to earn the badassery, not just watch someone else be good at it. Hope all of this made sense. This isn't to hold the Genesis Sonics up as untouchable classics--I quickly got a little bored of them on my recent visit because in retrospect they're fairly basic platformers--but at least I can see why people liked them at the time and every once in awhile they are fun to play. I just don't get the modern Sonics (even the modern 2D ones seem to have the same problems I described earlier) at all. Ironically, NiGHTs Into Dreams was a far more satisfying speed-focused experience. I understand, but part of me think it is a cynical reason. I give Adventure a pass because it was a new fresh thing for Sonic. The later games this has been made much more clear. There's so much scripted stuff that likely would frustrate players if they try and let us manually pass them. I think the series just needs to open up more, the speed usually speak for itself considering most platformer characters are slowpokes. Really, I don't want so much speed with Sonic. If anything they need to give Sonic his agility and parkour reflexes. Like the opening of Sonic CD. Lost World tried to attempt this with a couple new moves but unfortunately the game was all over the place in execution and I doubt Sega will ever revisit the ideas seeing how Forces was made to DOUBLE DOWN on Boost gameplay and nostalgia pandering (which isn't brought up in this discussion but oh man don't get me started on 3D Classic Sonic). Also I just want to play as the different characters in 3D again. I know people HATE Sonic's friends but they are still some of my favorite characters to play as in a platformer. 2D and 3D.
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Post by edmonddantes on Jul 18, 2018 9:18:27 GMT -5
I hear you about the nostalgia pandering. Honestly games like Mania totally don't interest me because I look at it and I'm like "...if I want Classic-style Sonic, I'll just hook up my Genesis. What can I get out of this that I can't get out of a ROM hack?"
The Sonic franchise seems like its struggled for a long time to find any sort of identity. It worked in the 1990s because the "speed" and attitude were enough to boost it and they were actually really neat little games, but once that was no longer enough, things went south, fast.
Speaking as an old-school Sonic fan I think one of the biggest mistakes Sega made was being all egotistical and like "no, you must accept OUR canon!" so people who grew up with characters like Princess Sally suddenly had to accept Amy Rose, Robotnik being named Eggman, and Sonic living on basically an alternate reality Earth instead of Planet Mobius. Honestly, since Sonic appealed more to Americans than the Japanese it would've made more sense to just adapt the American canon and integrate it into the games rather than force Americans to accept a version of canon that was meant to appeal to Japanese preschoolers (who, again, didn't like Sonic much anyway, at least according to everything I've ever read).
But then, Sega--much as I love 'em--has never been full of smart decisions, and that's why they no longer make their own consoles.
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Post by lurker on Jul 18, 2018 9:35:03 GMT -5
I hear you about the nostalgia pandering. Honestly games like Mania totally don't interest me because I look at it and I'm like "...if I want Classic-style Sonic, I'll just hook up my Genesis. What can I get out of this that I can't get out of a ROM hack?" The Sonic franchise seems like its struggled for a long time to find any sort of identity. It worked in the 1990s because the "speed" and attitude were enough to boost it and they were actually really neat little games, but once that was no longer enough, things went south, fast. Speaking as an old-school Sonic fan I think one of the biggest mistakes Sega made was being all egotistical and like "no, you must accept OUR canon!" so people who grew up with characters like Princess Sally suddenly had to accept Amy Rose, Robotnik being named Eggman, and Sonic living on basically an alternate reality Earth instead of Planet Mobius. Honestly, since Sonic appealed more to Americans than the Japanese it would've made more sense to just adapt the American canon and integrate it into the games rather than force Americans to accept a version of canon that was meant to appeal to Japanese preschoolers (who, again, didn't like Sonic much anyway, at least according to everything I've ever read). But then, Sega--much as I love 'em--has never been full of smart decisions, and that's why they no longer make their own consoles. What helps Mania is that it's probably the best 2D Sonic in a long time and that it mixes both new and old really well. The thing though is that the cartoons have always been separate from the games (not sure about Sonic X series , though). Where they ran into trouble was with the Sonic comic. IIRC Sega made them phase out the cartoon characters completely. |
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Post by dsparil on Jul 18, 2018 14:12:09 GMT -5
Regarding canon, it was definitely a mistake to have the Saturday AM show and Archie comic exist is a totally separate continuity from the games and the weekday cartoon. There was a SatAM game in development that was isometric and not speed oriented but it was canceled. There's a bit of footage. |
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Post by lurker on Jul 18, 2018 14:36:17 GMT -5
Granted the varying tones would make it difficult, especially with Adventures.
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Post by ZenithianHero on Jul 19, 2018 9:35:43 GMT -5
I hear you about the nostalgia pandering. Honestly games like Mania totally don't interest me because I look at it and I'm like "...if I want Classic-style Sonic, I'll just hook up my Genesis. What can I get out of this that I can't get out of a ROM hack?" The Sonic franchise seems like its struggled for a long time to find any sort of identity. It worked in the 1990s because the "speed" and attitude were enough to boost it and they were actually really neat little games, but once that was no longer enough, things went south, fast. Speaking as an old-school Sonic fan I think one of the biggest mistakes Sega made was being all egotistical and like "no, you must accept OUR canon!" so people who grew up with characters like Princess Sally suddenly had to accept Amy Rose, Robotnik being named Eggman, and Sonic living on basically an alternate reality Earth instead of Planet Mobius. Honestly, since Sonic appealed more to Americans than the Japanese it would've made more sense to just adapt the American canon and integrate it into the games rather than force Americans to accept a version of canon that was meant to appeal to Japanese preschoolers (who, again, didn't like Sonic much anyway, at least according to everything I've ever read). But then, Sega--much as I love 'em--has never been full of smart decisions, and that's why they no longer make their own consoles. Eh it was to be more consistent and made localization easier for them. In the end the comics had the freedom to include characters the games don't have anymore and let fans enjoy different stories with the cast. I think it would been worse if the two were to be crafted closely. I personally like Eggman more than Robotnik (which not my native language, but means "worker" in polish). I never cared about Sally either. When I saw Amy in CD and Fighters she's a fun character that later had unique abilities in Sonic Advance. Mania is a fantastic game, if a little too over-appreciated sometimes due to the YMMV nature of the franchise. It was never about Mania I just don't like how Classic Sonic is portrayed in the 3D games. He looks too short and stubby, and his gameplay isn't that great, some Generations levels aside. My Classic Sonic also talks just not as much as Modern. Apparently only Green Hill and Chemical Plant exist in his universe now. Sega also thinks the only characters we can have is Tails and Knuckles by his side. I dunno I haven't played Forces yet I'll get to it eventually but it's a more misguided game than anything since 06. |
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Post by 🧀Son of Suzy Creamcheese🧀 on Jul 20, 2018 6:50:53 GMT -5
I hear you about the nostalgia pandering. Honestly games like Mania totally don't interest me because I look at it and I'm like "...if I want Classic-style Sonic, I'll just hook up my Genesis. What can I get out of this that I can't get out of a ROM hack?" There's really only place for one official S3&K style game in your world? What you'll get is an expertly made game that in many people's opinion (not mine) is even better than what SEGA officially released in the 90's. You shouldn't blame SEGA for trying to stabilize the Sonic brand; you should be blaming SEGA of America that it led the brand in such a chaotic state in the first place. It just outgrew that awkward period in history where gaming franchises were still very disconnected between the west and Japan. |
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