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Post by Magma MK-II on Jul 20, 2018 9:47:44 GMT -5
What can I get out of this that I can't get out of a ROM hack? Not everyone knows, or CARES about ROM hacks (myself included), and would rather play an official product.
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Post by silentstorm on Jul 20, 2018 20:36:43 GMT -5
What can I get out of this that I can't get out of a ROM hack? Not everyone knows, or CARES about ROM hacks (myself included), and would rather play an official product. It's also a new game and buying will encourage Sega to keep making games like this.
Also, yeah, Sonic Mania has some stages of the Genesis games, granted, they are remixed, but it also has new ones, fantastic soundtrack, cool Chaos Emerald stages, love the animations and all the rest, it's just a good game.
Besides, if someone likes the old Sonic Genesis games...why would they replay the same games again and again when there's a new game that everyone says is as good as those with new levels and experiences?
Seriously, is the idea of getting an official new good game in the style of the ones you like really that bad of an idea?
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Post by edmonddantes on Jul 21, 2018 2:59:40 GMT -5
I hear you about the nostalgia pandering. Honestly games like Mania totally don't interest me because I look at it and I'm like "...if I want Classic-style Sonic, I'll just hook up my Genesis. What can I get out of this that I can't get out of a ROM hack?" There's really only place for one official S3&K style game in your world? What you'll get is an expertly made game that in many people's opinion (not mine) is even better than what SEGA officially released in the 90's. I feel like I'm being misunderstood on this point. One: "ONE official S3&K style game?" ONE? S3&K doesn't play substantially different from Sonics 1 and 2, so by my count that's 3-ish official games (depending on if you count S3 and S&K as two games or one), then you add in the Game Gear games and Sonic CD... that's like 5-9 games if you only count the official ones. Two: Actually a huge part of the problem is (being a little selfish here admittedly) I don't already own a modern PC/PS4/XBone/SuperDeathRobot necessary to play Sonic Mania, so from my perspective, the pitch turns into "you're asking me to pay $400 for the console (plus however much for the HDTV/monitor, internet connection, whatever the storefront's own sign-up costs) on top of the game's base price... for something that's deliberately trying to be in the style of games I can already play for free by hooking up my Genesis?" From what I understand (and admittedly this is making assumptions which aren't gonna fit everyone) with most people the case was they somehow lost access to their Genesis (either they sold it, put it in storage, or its in a house in some other states, or Robotnik built a robot out of it...) so for a decade the only games they had access to (except thru emulation) were the 3D Sonics so it was either those or no Sonic at all, so I can see in that atmosphere reaching a point where something like Mania is exciting (hell, something like that is what got me to pull my NES out of storage during the N64/Playstation years) because its become fresh again. I haven't had that situation tho--once I saw that gaming was going in directions that were just kinda boring IMO ("yawn, ANOTHER realistic military shooter" just to name one of many trends I thought were dull) I stopped keeping up with modern hardware. Money and space constraints helped matters more: Some of my friends/relatives actually offered to buy me an HDTV but I only have space for one television, and when the choice is A) keep my old CRT that plays all the stuff I own or B) get an HDTV which is invariably gonna need tweaking (which might possibly involve buying more parts and gizmos) and still have headaches after that, to me it looks like a perspective of "fixing what isn't broken just so you can fix it again, all for benefits that I might never see." Also... consider that in the comments your replying to I didn't even speak that highly of the Genesis Sonics, calling them something I got bored of after a week of nostalgia. Which is another reason I'm not that keen on Mania, because its a throwback to something that (for this gamer at least) just isn't that interesting. This probably goes without saying, but if I was more of a Classic Sonic fan to begin with, Mania would be more appealing to me. Again, you're misunderstanding: I'm not blaming them for trying to stabilize the franchise. I'm blaming them for going about it all the wrong way. Like I said: Basically NOBODY knew the original game canon--not even in Japan (again Sonic was more popular in the West, and was designed primarily to appeal to Westerners anyway). On the other hand tons of people grew up with Sally, Robotnik, Scratch and Grounder, and the idea of Planet Mobius. And absolutely nothing in the games indicated that Sonic took place in an Earth-like world where Sonic lived alongside normal humans. Then Sonic Adventure comes along and oops, sorry, everything you know is wrong, BUT YOUR FORCED TO ACCEPT IT! It's actually analogous to my home situation I talked about above: Sega's approach would be like if I went ahead and replaced the CRT with an HDTV, except in this case if I lived with other people and everyone else was also using the CRT but I went and did it anyway and now everyone has to deal with a change that nobody but myself wanted and even I don't know why it was a good idea, just kinda expecting it'll justify itself eventually. What makes Sega's decision worse is it WASN'T justified eventually--Sonic 2006 was an attempt to reboot the universe, and each new game basically ignores canon as they see fit (is Silver the Hedgehog still from a bad future in Sonic Forces? If not, where is he from? For that matter does Knuckles still guard the Master Emerald?) and then there's been stuff like Sonic Boom, and hell Forces itself was basically an attempt to do a SatAM-like universe. I understand there might be rights issues with non-Sega characters like Sally (funny how companies like Marvel Comics never have this problem but Sega somehow does) but even so Sega still greatly mismanaged what they had, and it winds up contributing to the complete lack of any sort of identity the franchise currently exhibits (a problem that competitors like Mario and Mega Man don't seem to share).
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Post by dsparil on Jul 21, 2018 10:21:12 GMT -5
The fact that there was a SatAM game in development should be proof enough that there weren't any rights issues with new characters. I do think it was a mistake to not exploit that more because Sonic doesn't have a canon otherwise. You have the ill defined Chaos Emeralds and a few recurring characters. The Death Egg between 2 and 3&K is the closest the 2D games even have for story continuity. The 3D games do differ wildly in tone, but it's not like a whole lot had to be thrown out to achieve it.
I've said this before, but I think most of Sega's 90s problems stem from internal divisions between the Japanese and American branches. SoJ felt like SoA was the tail wagging the dog, and SoA felt like they were being stifled by SoJ despite being more successful. The whole thing was a waste of Tom Kalinske who's used to being the "real" CEO and being SoA CEO was effectively a demotion. Not that I agree with everything SoA did, but they knew the market. I don't see why there couldn't have been two separate lines of Sonic games especially since they might not have had directly comparable gameplay.
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Post by Magma MK-II on Jul 21, 2018 15:08:21 GMT -5
r=" edmonddantes" source="/post/429622/thread" timestamp="1532159980"]I don't already own a modern PC/PS4/XBone/SuperDeathRobot necessary to play Sonic Mania[/quote] This is a non-issue honestly. Chances are whatever you're using to post on this forum can run it perfectly fine. All I have is one of those old Dell machines you can easily find on bargains with Pentium Duo and 2GB RAM, and not only it runs the game perfectly, it also runs the majority of indie games without any problems. The only reason I'm not desperate to upgrade to a modern computer is because much like you I don't care about AAA gaming as well.
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Post by toei on Jul 21, 2018 16:20:01 GMT -5
Glad the tone of the Sonic the Fighters article is positive. It tends to get dismissed out of hand, but it's actually a cool little game.
About the whole "Sonic canon" mess... Practically no one cared about a "Sonic cannon" then (or now, AFAIK). The games didn't even have the customary text intro, this stuff absolutely didn't matter. Furthermore, those American cartoons and comics were completely terrible and only hurt the cool / rebellious Sega had created for Sonic in the early years. The idea that not having Sally in Sonic Adventure or going back to Eggman had literally anything to do with Sega bowing out of the console market has no basis in reality.
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Post by lurker on Jul 21, 2018 16:38:18 GMT -5
Glad the tone of the Sonic the Fighters article is positive. It tends to get dismissed out of hand, but it's actually a cool little game. About the whole "Sonic canon" mess... Practically no one cared about a "Sonic cannon" then (or now, AFAIK). The games didn't even have the customary text intro, this stuff absolutely didn't matter. Furthermore, those American cartoons and comics were completely terrible and only hurt the cool / rebellious Sega had created for Sonic in the early years. The idea that not having Sally in Sonic Adventure or going back to Eggman had literally anything to do with Sega bowing out of the console market has no basis in reality. I still enjoy SatAM, though looking back Sally could have been written better.
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Post by ZenithianHero on Jul 21, 2018 17:15:27 GMT -5
Hmm until they get covered in the article I notice the narrative for the handheld 2D Sonic, Rush in particular, really sells them short. I mean Rush gotten one of the highest meta scores of the modern games after all. It was trying something new for the 2D formula and worked. The sequel Rush Adventure is even better in some parts but gotten slightly lower meta score and seems overlooked. Glad the tone of the Sonic the Fighters article is positive. It tends to get dismissed out of hand, but it's actually a cool little game. I agree, the game is a blast. Too bad it never gotten that Saturn port, but wasn't forgotten by Sega. Many later Sonic spinoffs are like that. I know so many fans who adored Battle on GBA. The racing games tend to be great. Well maybe not Drift 1 and the Kinect Riders.
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Post by alphex on Jul 21, 2018 20:52:07 GMT -5
I'm super happy Sonic 3D Blast didn't get a scathing review but rather a pretty positive assessment. I had the PC version as a kid, and because I was still stuck with my old SNES and didn't have a modern enough console to play 3D platformers, that kinda was my first taste of that. Also, as it was one of the first Sonic games I'd ever played, the more deliberate pace didn't strike me as "wrong", so yeah, happy to see this one get some recognition.
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Post by Discoalucard on Jul 22, 2018 10:14:40 GMT -5
Hmm until they get covered in the article I notice the narrative for the handheld 2D Sonic, Rush in particular, really sells them short. I mean Rush gotten one of the highest meta scores of the modern games after all. It was trying something new for the 2D formula and worked. The sequel Rush Adventure is even better in some parts but gotten slightly lower meta score and seems overlooked. The thing about Advance/Rush is that they're *okay* but they really aren't a patch on the original 16-bit games. The different characters here work better than they do in the 3D games, but the level design is noticeably not as interesting and the physics are *slightly* weird. Rush gets props for the excellent soundtrack though.
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Post by edmonddantes on Jul 22, 2018 10:32:30 GMT -5
This is a non-issue honestly. Chances are whatever you're using to post on this forum can run it perfectly fine. All I have is one of those old Dell machines you can easily find on bargains with Pentium Duo and 2GB RAM, and not only it runs the game perfectly, it also runs the majority of indie games without any problems. The only reason I'm not desperate to upgrade to a modern computer is because much like you I don't care about AAA gaming as well. In that case I might try it out. Honestly tho I agree with SomeCallMeJohnny: If it came out on the Sega Saturn I'd buy 20 copies (he was saying it as a massive Sonic fan who absolutely adores Mania BTW, I'm saying it as someone who feels his poor Saturn doesn't get enough love) By the way, kind of off-topic but how well does the Mega Man Legacy Collection 2 (particularly MMs 9 and 10) run on your comp? Being kinda hypocritical but those are two retro-style games I actually did want to play but I never got any of the consoles they came out on, but now that they're on PC I might have my chance. (Yeah I'm not sure exactly why Sonic Mania doesn't get me excited but MMs 9 and 10 do... I think Mega Man must just tick some mental gearwork that Sonic doesn't) ... You know what I WOULD wholeheartedly support Sega doing? A sequel to Tails' Adventure. That game was the awesome. EDIT: Actually, the more I think about it, the more I think "this would actually be a good idea." I mean my main beef with Sonic Mania is just that its another standard Sonic platformer which we've already got almost a dozen of, but Tails Adventure... its really the only game of its kind, at least in the Sonic franchise, and Tails as the starring character only happened twice (the other being Sky Patrol, which wasn't that good). Maybe I should contact Christian Whitehead or whatever his name was and pitch the concept to him.
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Post by 🧀Son of Suzy Creamcheese🧀 on Jul 23, 2018 10:46:57 GMT -5
edmonddantes Sonic 2 is similar enough to 3&K, though I don't feel level-design-wise it's quite there yet. And Sonic 1 and CD take a completely different approach altogether. Out of the 8-bit titles, only Triple Trouble feels close to 3&K, and that one is obviously held back by being on the Game Gear. So, there's tons of potential in another 3&K style game, which is why Mania is very much worth it. It's great, it isn't something you can find in rom-hacks, and certainly isn't something you need a powerful PC for (not sure where you got that idea considering you even compared it to rom-hacks). If you're not interested in more Sonic, that's fine, but Mania has got more than enough reason to exist and has been in demand by fans for ages. People also don't want Mania because they lost their Genesis or something like that. Anyone can still get those titles, either legally or illegally, today. People have been absolutely demanding a classic-style Sonic for the better part of this century and Mania was long, long, overdue. As for canon. Yes, it's incredibly stupid that they tried to shove Sonic Adventure canon down people's throats. But not because of the cartoons being outed. The cartoons were just secondary media, and I doubt that many people cared about that. The cartoons have nothing to do with the vision of the Genesis games and are just relics of an age where companies couldn't just let Japanese properties be what they're supposed to be. It should've just stayed a word-less, light-on-story franchise like it was before Adventure. Also, HD TVs don't need tweaking or new parts.
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Post by dsparil on Jul 23, 2018 11:51:21 GMT -5
I don't mean to harp on the SatAM/comics stuff because I've literally only read one comic although I have seen every episode of the show and have it on DVD, but the comic ran with the same general continuity for 20 years! and only stopped because one of the writers started doing shady copyright stuff which lead to a reboot. A different version under a different publisher is still being made. It is an abject failure on Sega's part to have more or less ignored that.
The situation isn't all that different than with the Donald Duck comics that Carl Banks did for Disney which eventually led to DuckTales. They had something good and rich in decades of mythology which just went away one day because some executive didn't like that it was more popular than Mickey. It's all pure mismanagement. If you have something people like, use it! "Losing" to yourself is certainly better than losing to an actual rival.
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Post by lurker on Jul 23, 2018 12:05:29 GMT -5
I don't mean to harp on the SatAM/comics stuff because I've literally only read one comic although I have seen every episode of the show and have it on DVD, but the comic ran with the same general continuity for 20 years! and only stopped because one of the writers started doing shady copyright stuff which lead to a reboot. A different version under a different publisher is still being made. It is an abject failure on Sega's part to have more or less ignored that. The situation isn't all that different than with the Donald Duck comics that Carl Banks did for Disney which eventually led to DuckTales. They had something good and rich in decades of mythology which just went away one day because some executive didn't like that it was more popular than Mickey. It's all pure mismanagement. If you have something people like, use it! "Losing" to yourself is certainly better than losing to an actual rival. Copyright is close. It more had to do with Ken Penders fight with Archie over ownership of his characters.
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Post by dsparil on Jul 23, 2018 12:24:21 GMT -5
Ownership and copyright are synonymous in this type of case. Penders did actually go so far as to register his work with the copyright office which is what led to the legal spat in the first place. Of course Archie couldn't produce the original contract so they were kinda screwed in that regard probably because it's sitting in some unmarked box in a storage facility.
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