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Post by wyrdwad on Oct 1, 2019 7:10:21 GMT -5
Posted this on my Twitter and Facebook, but figured there may be some people on here who'd be down to experiment with this as well (or at least people who'll be as fascinated by it as I am!), so do forgive the copy/paste job if you follow me elsewhere.
I recently re-beat MSX2 Dragon Slayer IV: Drasle Family (a.k.a. Legacy of the Wizard), but remembering that MSX2 Drasle Family passwords also work in the MSX1 version of the game, and owning a copy of the MSX1 version as well (because of course I do!), I decided to fire that up with my final password and quickly take down Dilguios (the Japanese name of the dragon) to see how the ending to that version may differ from the Famicom/NES and MSX2 versions.
Well, lo and behold... I haven't been able to find my answer. Because as far as I can tell, the final boss is LITERALLY IMPOSSIBLE in the MSX1 version of the game.
See, in the MSX2 version, he breathes fire at you, but once he has you close to being cornered along the left side of the screen, he flies back to the right and gives you a brief respite, allowing you to jump in for a few hits, dodge the fire breath, and repeat over and over again until he dies. It's actually a fairly easy battle, if you have the patience for it.
In the NES version, he does the same thing, but you can also position yourself between his feet and his fire breath if you're precise enough with your movements, risking certain doom for a much quicker victory. (This may work in the MSX2 version as well, but I've never been able to pull it off; as far as I can tell, you'll ALWAYS get hit by the fire breath or by his feet if you attempt this in that version.)
In the MSX1 version, too, positioning yourself between his feet and his fire breath doesn't seem to be possible. Except... he also never flies back to the right side of the screen. EVER. He traps you against the left side of the screen and just absolutely annihilates you.
I've tried doing as much damage as possible (using a rapid-fire controller) before he gets there, but I haven't even been able to get him below 50% health that way before he kills me (hell, I barely got him below 70%, and I only managed that once!). And no, there's no way to damage him quickly enough to keep him from moving left -- he's guaranteed to move one step to the left every time he uses his breath attack, without fail.
I've also confirmed that, indeed, equipment can't be changed once the final battle begins, and you do indeed need to have the Dragon Slayer equipped in order to trigger the battle in the first place. So using items to survive or cheat your way through the battle is out.
AND I've confirmed that even if you grab an invincibility ring JUST BEFORE triggering the fight, it won't matter, as its effects will be canceled as soon as the battle starts.
Literally, I can't find ANY means of POSSIBLY beating this guy. Best guess is, you DO have to position yourself between his feet and his fire breath, but need to be pixel-perfect -- though I really, REALLY can't seem to even get this to work for a split second without dying, so I don't think it's possible. I'm not the best gamer, but I should at least be able to pull off this trick ONCE, for a half-second!
If anyone else is willing to give this a shot, I'd love to hear what you're able to find. Here's my final password:
おはにか かになあ へちてひ おねさい すかふつ そへのひ ちさひこ たすこえ
(On a Panasonic FS-A1WX system, you can enter this by pressing the following keys on the keyboard:
6FIT TIU3 ~AWV 6<XE RT2Z C~KV AXVB QRB5
This will differ considerably depending on your model, however. And I have no clue how to enter this via emulation.)
If anyone is able to figure this out, please let me know! Let's solve this gaming mystery together! By... me introducing it to you, and then you doing all the work! Yeah! Heheh.
Thanks!
-Tom
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Post by retr0gamer on Oct 1, 2019 7:18:49 GMT -5
Any chance it's some archaic form of copy protection? A big fuck you to the hackers that stole their game???
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Post by wyrdwad on Oct 1, 2019 7:23:07 GMT -5
If so, it's a bit misplaced, since I'm playing it on an actual MSX with an actual retail cartridge. Though it IS possible that using passwords from the MSX2 version of the game somehow messes with its internal logic, I guess? I don't know how or why it would, nor do I have any clue how they would've possibly accounted for that (since the MSX1 version came out long before the MSX2 version). But it's a theory, I suppose? -Tom
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Post by retr0gamer on Oct 2, 2019 3:45:50 GMT -5
Maybe check a lets play on youtube or NicoNico??
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Post by wyrdwad on Oct 2, 2019 5:17:33 GMT -5
Maybe check a lets play on youtube or NicoNico?? That's another thing: there really aren't any, as far as I can tell. There are a handful of videos that showcase somebody playing the VERY BEGINNING of the game, but any full playthroughs of it that are labeled "MSX" are invariably of the MSX2 version. The MSX1 version seems to be largely ignored -- and for good reason, as it's easily the worst of the game's three versions. Still weird to see no real documentation of it, though! It's like it exists solely as a novelty. -Tom
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Post by wyrdwad on Oct 2, 2019 6:22:43 GMT -5
Thanks to Imanok and Sutchan in the MSX community, the mystery has been solved, and the MSX1 version of Dragon Slayer IV has been bested! Turns out the solution is... really counterintuitive, which is why I hadn't even considered trying it.
Basically, you have to actively RUN AWAY from the dragon before it gets too far to the left (essentially, stop trying to attack it once it gets around halfway across the screen), and just kind of... hug the left side of the screen and look away from it for a bit. It'll eventually get tired of inching toward you, and decide to fly back to the right side of the screen, at which point you can go in, hit it a few more times, then cower in fear on the left side of the screen again for another 10-20 seconds so it resets itself to the right once more. Rinse and repeat, and you'll eventually emerge victorious... though it sure is a hell of a lot more annoying and time-consuming than in either the NES/Famicom or MSX2 version!
The end result is, as predicted, the worst version of the game's ending -- JUST credits, this time without even scrolling (it just pops new credits on the screen every 15 or 20 seconds), and then when it gets to the end of those credits, it changes the music track to a lesser version of "Teatime." By which I mean, it's the same song that plays during the slideshow portion of the MSX2 version's ending, but... a less polished version OF that song, with less harmonizing and an overall rougher quality to it.
And of course, there's no slideshow accompanying it -- it just stays on the "Dragon Slayer Famiry" copyright credit forever while the song loops endlessly.
The one upshot? Weirdly, the dragon's death animation is WAY cooler in the MSX1 version of the game than in either of the other versions, as you see it smoothly collapse into a heap, burst into blue flames, then dissolve away into the air in an effect that reminds me of the transporters in Star Trek. It's quite cool-looking, honestly, and is a far cry from the "suddenly appearing dead on the ground and flashing a few flame effects before cutting to the ending" death animation seen in the NES/Famicom and MSX2 versions of the game. In fact, I'd say the dragon overall looks best in the MSX1 version, randomly -- it has smoother animations and a more threatening appearance in general. It's rather weird!
But yeah. Overall, the MSX1 version is still just plain the worst version of this game. Which isn't to say it's bad -- just that you're better off playing the NES/Famicom or MSX2 version if you have the choice. Aside from the slightly cooler-looking (but way more annoying) final boss dragon, the only thing I can really give the MSX1 version is that it has the best box art of the bunch.
Anyway, mystery solved! Many thanks to anyone who looked into this.
-Tom
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Post by ReyVGM on Oct 2, 2019 19:19:01 GMT -5
Glad the mystery was solved!
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Post by psygnosis8 on Oct 4, 2019 9:13:39 GMT -5
Wow, I’m surprised there’s that many differences between the msx 1 and 2 versions. To me they just seemed like the same game but the msx2 version has a better color palette.
That game is freaking brutal. Congrats on finishing it.
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Post by wyrdwad on Oct 4, 2019 9:22:52 GMT -5
Oh, no, there are a TON of differences. The MSX1 version actually has more in common with the Famicom/NES version in some ways than it does with the MSX2 version -- the MSX2 version updated the map quite considerably, changed around the locations of various items (to more logical spots IMHO), and altered the way painting warps work + added a TON more warpable paintings (which actually makes it possible to use Roas to skip the father's section of the maze entirely if you so desire, as I demonstrated in the following video). www.youtube.com/watch?v=PRFh49ietl4I'd love to see a speedrunner take on the MSX2 version, as I bet it could be completed considerably faster than the NES version -- not only can the father's route be skipped, but the updated item placements make it easier to get necessary items without going out of your way to do so, and the considerable changes to the map in the sister's section of the maze are likely much quicker to traverse once you know what you're doing. The MSX1 version mostly shares its map with the Famicom/NES version (though randomly, it did shift the dragon room over to the right a bit, matching its layout in the MSX2 version, which also means Roas and Pochi are capable of accessing the left side of the map in the MSX1 version, which they are not in the Famicom/NES version). Though the MSX1 version uses all the same music as the MSX2 version, with the aforementioned exception of "Teatime," as that track was randomly improved VERY SLIGHTLY for the game's MSX2 outing (the bassline was transposed down an octave, and some light arpeggio was added, as my friend John noted). It's really pretty fascinating to examine the differences in the three versions! -Tom
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Post by psygnosis8 on Oct 4, 2019 10:40:22 GMT -5
Oh, no, there are a TON of differences. The MSX1 version actually has more in common with the Famicom/NES version in some ways than it does with the MSX2 version -- the MSX2 version updated the map quite considerably, changed around the locations of various items (to more logical spots IMHO), and altered the way painting warps work + added a TON more warpable paintings (which actually makes it possible to use Roas to skip the father's section of the maze entirely if you so desire, as I demonstrated in the following video). www.youtube.com/watch?v=PRFh49ietl4I'd love to see a speedrunner take on the MSX2 version, as I bet it could be completed considerably faster than the NES version -- not only can the father's route be skipped, but the updated item placements make it easier to get necessary items without going out of your way to do so, and the considerable changes to the map in the sister's section of the maze are likely much quicker to traverse once you know what you're doing. The MSX1 version mostly shares its map with the Famicom/NES version (though randomly, it did shift the dragon room over to the right a bit, matching its layout in the MSX2 version, which also means Roas and Pochi are capable of accessing the left side of the map in the MSX1 version, which they are not in the Famicom/NES version). Though the MSX1 version uses all the same music as the MSX2 version, with the aforementioned exception of "Teatime," as that track was randomly improved VERY SLIGHTLY for the game's MSX2 outing (the bassline was transposed down an octave, and some light arpeggio was added, as my friend John noted). It's really pretty fascinating to examine the differences in the three versions! -Tom Yeah, legacy of the wizard is one of my favorite games. I sold off all my NES stuff, but kept a CIB LOTW. I stopped out of frustration, But I have been playing the MSX2 version lately, before my second kid came along. It is really interesting to see all the differences. I think I like the musical selections in the MSX versions better, actually. I also find it remarkable how similarly the MSX and NES versions play and feel mechanically. Your skills in one directly translate to the other. That’s impressive porting, considering that The machines have different CPUs. It’s great to talk to someone as passionate about this game as me!
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Post by wyrdwad on Oct 4, 2019 10:48:35 GMT -5
It's just such a remarkable game, with such subtly perfect design decisions throughout -- and it's cool to see how the developers kept tweaking it with each respective release, changing a few things to make each version just that slightest bit better than the last. It's rare to see a game of this sort from this era that had such obvious care and attention put into its balance and design, and every time I come back to it, I'm impressed all over again with just what a masterpiece it is. Definitely one of my favorite classic Falcom games, and in some ways one of their most underappreciated.
And also definitely one of my top 5 favorite MSX2 games!
So yeah, ditto, it's cool to talk to someone else who appreciates it so much. I don't own the NES version CIB, but I do own cartridge-only versions of it on NES, Famicom, and MSX1, and I own it CIB on MSX2. I'd consider collecting CIB versions of all four releases, but finding a CIB copy of the MSX1 version for an affordable price is a bit of a challenge. The other three, no problem -- even the MSX2 version is relatively common, with CIB copies usually going for under $40 -- but you rarely ever see the MSX1 version at all, much less CIB. That's why I snatched up the cartridge as soon as I saw it come up on eBay a couple years back.
-Tom
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Post by psygnosis8 on Oct 4, 2019 16:43:02 GMT -5
It's just such a remarkable game, with such subtly perfect design decisions throughout -- and it's cool to see how the developers kept tweaking it with each respective release, changing a few things to make each version just that slightest bit better than the last. It's rare to see a game of this sort from this era that had such obvious care and attention put into its balance and design, and every time I come back to it, I'm impressed all over again with just what a masterpiece it is. Definitely one of my favorite classic Falcom games, and in some ways one of their most underappreciated. And also definitely one of my top 5 favorite MSX2 games! So yeah, ditto, it's cool to talk to someone else who appreciates it so much. I don't own the NES version CIB, but I do own cartridge-only versions of it on NES, Famicom, and MSX1, and I own it CIB on MSX2. I'd consider collecting CIB versions of all four releases, but finding a CIB copy of the MSX1 version for an affordable price is a bit of a challenge. The other three, no problem -- even the MSX2 version is relatively common, with CIB copies usually going for under $40 -- but you rarely ever see the MSX1 version at all, much less CIB. That's why I snatched up the cartridge as soon as I saw it come up on eBay a couple years back. -Tom There’s a translation hack for the msx version on romhacking.net. It translates the passwords so I can make some sense of it. And the Famicom box art is awesome, with the castle in the background.
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Post by wyrdwad on Oct 4, 2019 18:41:09 GMT -5
I was gonna say, how do you make a translation hack for a game with no Japanese in it? But yes, the passwords can be a problem if you're not familiar with Japanese. Hell, they were a bit of a problem for me, even, since I'm used to typing Japanese using the modern-day Windows IME, and don't know the layout of old-school Japanese keyboards at all -- so whenever typing a password, I had to basically play a game of "find the kana" for every single character. It got old very quickly! -Tom
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Post by psygnosis8 on Oct 4, 2019 21:07:59 GMT -5
I was gonna say, how do you make a translation hack for a game with no Japanese in it? But yes, the passwords can be a problem if you're not familiar with Japanese. Hell, they were a bit of a problem for me, even, since I'm used to typing Japanese using the modern-day Windows IME, and don't know the layout of old-school Japanese keyboards at all -- so whenever typing a password, I had to basically play a game of "find the kana" for every single character. It got old very quickly! -Tom And all the msx models have different layouts! I couldn’t figure out how to save Metal Gear 2 to disk (which is apparently possible and if anyone knows how, please tell me!) so I’ve been using those $@&(;<%%€ passwords. Some of the keys don’t even match up with what appears on screen when you type it. And if a character is wrong.... When I get a minute I’ll give ds4 on msx2 another shot. The levels are so heinously long....
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Post by wyrdwad on Oct 5, 2019 6:51:44 GMT -5
Weird that you'd have trouble saving Metal Gear 2 to disk -- it's literally just an option on the menu, as far as I recall. I played through the whole game saving and loading to and from disk, and had no issues! Are you sure the disk you were using was a proper 720kb 2DD disk, was formatted, and had enough space for the save data? Also, it's funny that I JUST typed yesterday how I'd never seen a boxed copy of MSX1 Drasle Family for sale before, because I went into Akihabara today for a bit of shopping, and... yeah, Trader #1 totally has a boxed copy of MSX1 Drasle Family for sale right now, for right around fifty bucks (5400 yen, I think it was?). I passed on it, as it really would be INCREDIBLY frivolous of me to buy that... but man, I was sorely tempted! If it's still there next time I'm in Akiba, I may just bite the bullet and go for it. But if anyone else wants it more, and happens to be going to Akihabara sometime soon... Trader #1, fifth floor, behind all the porn! Get it while it's hot! -Tom
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