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Post by Deleted on Nov 6, 2020 8:08:35 GMT -5
Many series, especially those that have a lot of entries, seem to have 'that' entry. You know, the one that nobody seems to appreciate. The black sheep if you will. Whether it's down to perceived quality, storytelling issues or that the entry dares to be just too different, these games get a bit of a bad rep. So I was wondering, which of these so called 'black sheep' do you all actually like, or maybe like quite a bit?
I'm going to start off with one of the more obvious ones (I think) - Zelda 2: The Adventure of Link. Back when this one came out there was a bit of experimentation going on and in this fashion Zelda 2 completely changes play styles from the original game, from an overhead action adventure to an overheap overworld map with sidescrolling action and dungeons. After Zelda 2 the series continued along the path of the original game, with this style never being revisited. This being different to the rest seems to be a large part of why this one is overlooked - the other reason of course, being the difficulty.
Personally, I have always found this game really charming and found the side scrolling segments allow for more challenging and engaging combat than the overworld games. They do get a little carried away with the challenge - mostly at the very end of the game, but up to that point it feels really rewarding, especially with the RPG levelling system to give a sense of progression. It's just kind of a shame they never allowed you to level further since they are capped pretty early. I expect gaining a bit more health, magic etc would have made the late game difficulty seem more balanced.
I really would have wished this type of game was revisited in the Zelda series as I actually preferred it quite a bit over the original, which I find feels stiff due to it's 4-directional combat. I have revisited the game quite a bit over the years and always had a good time, so I feel it's reputation is really undeserved. For me, I rank this somewhere in the middle of the series and would not even consider it as a low point.
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Post by ommadawnyawn2 on Nov 6, 2020 10:33:36 GMT -5
I'd really like to see a remake or spiritual sequel to Zelda 2 - Since I like MVs/Platform Adventures and sidescrolling ARPGs it's not the differenct approach that bothers me but more the execution of it with a poorly balanced difficulty, lack of some abilities found in the other games, the 1-ups and starting back at the beginning, and the lack of dungeon maps for example.
Anyway I like these: Fantasy Zone 2 & FZ2 DX - I'm not sure it is considered one generally but it got some hate on this site
Solomon's Key 2 - I think it's more overlooked though but I guess it also killed the series
Splatterhouse: Wanpaku Graffiti - Cute or not it plays the best
Bionic Commando (GB) - Also seems a bit overlooked
Galaxy Force 1/2 (ARC) - Not really a series game (2 is an expanded version of 1) but overlooked among the 80s scaler games by Sega, I think it's the best playing and looking one.
Populous 3 (PC) - While a bit scaled back in some ways I find the interface and mechanics a lot more fun and user friendly in this one, I like the world and the terramorphing was impressive
Panorama Cotton (MD) - I think it's just overlooked compared to the sidescrolling ones
SMB2 - Does that one even count? Most people seem to think it's great including me
Strider 2014 - Fans of the arcade action ones don't seem to care for it but others do. I can see why in that it's not as colorful or varied in terms of the enemy roster, and it's kind of average as a MV overall, but it's still a solid game with great movement and fun combat
In general it seems like I do agree with the majority on these games.
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Post by lurker on Nov 6, 2020 10:56:54 GMT -5
I did enjoy Galaxy Force 2, but I'm not a fan of the game's health system.
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Post by dsparil on Nov 6, 2020 11:04:17 GMT -5
I think the 3D Zelda games take a lot from Zelda 2 in having more elaborate combat.
I like Castlevania II. It's definitely super unfair at times, but it was a nice change of pace especially before SotN refined that style. Also Harmony of Dissonance. It does have issues like prioritizing graphics over sound quality, and being a bit too sprawling with two castles, but the difficulty is better balanced than CotM and it doesn't rely so much on pure randomization for key gameplay elements.
I'm not totally sure if it's really considered the black sheep, but Quest for Glory V is probably my favorite in the series completely due to the fact that it's the only one that doesn't have combat that's complete garbage. For a series with so much combat, it's mind boggling that the one that almost didn't get made is the only one that nailed it.
Zork Nemesis is easily my favorite in the series. It's a game that's actually mature with reasonable acting done by professionals. I especially like the fact that it treats the setting as an actual place with a culture instead of loose details that are sometimes just jokes. Having played most of the series around a year ago (8 of 12), the original trilogy is much more serious than people remember, and Nemesis is much closer to it than Return to Zork (awful) and Grand Inquisitor (mediocre).
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Post by vnisanian2001 on Nov 6, 2020 11:55:23 GMT -5
Snake's Revenge.
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Post by spanky on Nov 6, 2020 13:34:08 GMT -5
Zelda 2 for me also. Never understood the hate.
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Post by shelverton on Nov 6, 2020 17:42:57 GMT -5
Shinobi PS2. I love it so much and yet it’s considered by many as pretty forgettable or even terrible. I’m especially annoyed when it’s brought up by mainstream video game media and they act like it was objectively a bad game.
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Post by blackdrazon on Nov 6, 2020 18:21:22 GMT -5
I like Final Fantasy II, even though I think it's one of the worst games of the SaGa mould it inspired. I just really like SaGa, I guess.
I like Kingdom Hearts: Chain of Memories more for its story than its gameplay, but I still definitely like its gameplay leaps and bounds more than the average person.
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Post by toei on Nov 6, 2020 18:33:44 GMT -5
Shinobi PS2. I love it so much and yet it’s considered by many as pretty forgettable or even terrible. I’m especially annoyed when it’s brought up by mainstream video game media and they act like it was objectively a bad game. I haven't played it much, but what's kept me away from it is that the levels are quite long and you can die really easily. I don't want to replay 10 minutes to get where I was just to die in 1 second.
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Post by mainpatr on Nov 6, 2020 22:47:12 GMT -5
Devil May Cry 2. It isn't as bad as people say it is! I kinda enjoyed Deus Ex:Invisible War too.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 7, 2020 1:22:14 GMT -5
For Zelda 2 I agree the game could do with a remake and/or new entry to reach the potential of that type of gameplay. Although what dsparil says is true that the 3D games do borrow from it in terms of combat (Skyward Sword even has a very similar system of enemies blocking and positioning your attacks) the 3D gameplay just doesn't feel the same to me. Any Zelda 2likes (for lack of a better term) actually feel like pretty different games also and there are few and far between. blackdrazon - did you play CoM on GBA or PS2? I think people playing the 'wrong' version is at least part of that games rep. The GBA one feels a little better as well as having a charming and vibrant look, its battle system feels intentionally designed whereas the PS2 version I think feels more a restricted version of mainline entries. ommadawnyawn2 - for SMB you mean Super Mario Bros 2 'USA', right? I read this initially thinking 'who the hell doesn't like Super Monkey Ball 2?!?!'. Assuming it is Mario 2 USA I'd say it is considered a black sheep even though not generally seen as a bad entry. I find it more appealing than the original these days. Also I think it's the only entry that was improved with the Allstars version, and then again later bettered on GBA.
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Post by toei on Nov 7, 2020 4:50:47 GMT -5
ommadawnyawn2 Aside from Wanpaku being cute and parodic, it's also more platformy than Splatterhouse 1 & 2 (and 3, obviously). Based on our discussion in the other thread, I can understand why you'd prefer it. I like the main three games myself, but not that one. - It's funny that I can't think of an example for this thread, even though I'm sure there must be a few. I kinda like Phantasy Star 3, but more for what it could have been than what it is. Calling Alundra 2 the black sheep of the series is a bit of stretch since the series only has two games, but it was definitely not as well received, and it's quite different - 3D and very cartoony in tone. The first is better, but I did enjoy A2 as well.
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Post by Null0x00 on Nov 7, 2020 5:01:09 GMT -5
Deus Ex: Invisible War. At the very least, it doesn't feel like a 20 hr demo like Mankind Divided did.
Also Spatterhouse: Wanpaku Graffiti. It's pretty fun honestly and is a solid action game for NES.
Finally, Sonic Lost World on Wii U/PC. I honestly don't get the hate this game gets, although this is coming from someone who's beaten Sonic 2006 and Sonic Boom: Rise of Lyric, so my opinions are coloured from having played the worst 3D Sonic games.
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Post by blackdrazon on Nov 7, 2020 5:56:16 GMT -5
blackdrazon - did you play CoM on GBA or PS2? I think people playing the 'wrong' version is at least part of that games rep. The GBA one feels a little better as well as having a charming and vibrant look, its battle system feels intentionally designed whereas the PS2 version I think feels more a restricted version of mainline entries. The 3D remake's combat system is absolutely a poorly-design port from 2D without much thought to what made the 2D version tick. It also introduces poorer writing, since they insisted on matching lip sync in every voiced scene and it came out terrible. On the other hand, the 3D version does have a few scraps of new content, and it also gets rid of the pretence that Riku's side of the story should be some kind of "challenge mode" like it was on the GBA, giving him far more capable abilities, ditching the needlessly terrible Atlantica deck, and fixing the part where they locked you out of your primary source of healing in some of the final worlds by ditching the Mickey card. The 3D version's problems are wider-reaching, but both versions made serious mistakes.
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Post by spanky on Nov 7, 2020 7:52:15 GMT -5
Another one I'll throw out - Castlevania Circle of the Moon. I know CV has more than a few black sheep entries.
People LOVED The game when it first came out (I think it got a couple 10s in EGM) but I don't think I've heard anything positive about it since. I don't think it's bad at all and I like it better than it's sequel (Harmony of Dissonance, right?). Aria of Sorrow is still the best of the 3 GBA titles though.
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