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Post by Deleted on Feb 20, 2021 15:44:45 GMT -5
68. Beyond Good & Evil 196. Neutopia
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Post by Bumpyroad on Feb 21, 2021 10:47:27 GMT -5
69. Crusader of Centy
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Post by windfisch on Feb 22, 2021 22:15:51 GMT -5
That's a pretty broad definition you got there. I can see why you’d include Guacamelee, as there's some amount of Zelda II and III in there. But Adventure Island IV and Tails' Adventure? That's where I’d personally draw the line (Super Adventure Island II would be a different matter, though). But to each their own. Anyway, I like Sylvan Tale, too, which gladly got fan-translated. It might even be the second most enjoyable portable Zelda-like of that generation and certainly makes up for the half-baked mess that is Sega’s own Ax Battler. I especially like the cute and expressive sprite-animation and the dungeons are pretty fun. Story-wise it's not that memorable, though (I literally cannot remember anything aside from "boy gets magically transported to another world fighting... something to save... someone"). Also, there is another Dragon's Trap/Dragon's Curse remake? Cool!
Yes, Wind Waker’s art holds up incredibly well. Never played the WiiU remaster but from what I’ve seen, I'd favor the Gamecube original. While the former certainly benefits from a higher resolution and sharper textures, it also looses something by adding smoother shading and excessive bloom lighting. My other "prettiest Zelda"-candidate is Minish Cap: Never before and never since has the the series seen such lovingly crafted pixels! In terms of art-style it easily beats later handheld entries like Phantom Hourglass/Spirit Tracks (“If you squint really hard it’s just like Wind Waker, I promise!"), the Link's Awakening remake (“Ooh, shiny plastic!”) or Link Between Worlds (“What even is an art-style?”). And since we're doing the numbers thing, I ran all the data through my Batputer. Here are the definitve results: 98. Neutopia II (PCE) – Eightway controls means it’s twice as good as the first, right? 999. Legacy of Kain Bloood Omen (PC, PSX) - Ugly graphics and clunky controls undermine its potential. It also takes itself way too seriously, though this may in fact work in the game’s favor, resulting in a story that can be genuinely interesting and ridiculous at the same time. The hammy voice-acting makes all this possible and is a delight to listen to (repetitive in-game samples not withstanding).
100. Entomorph (PC) - Giant insects and arachnids are taking over, and you have to stop them by making their bodies explode. Or you could just talk to them, since you’re gradually transforming from a human into an insect-like creature yourself. Did I mention there's also time travel? And cyborg-unicorns from outer space! Okay, that last bit might've been wishful thinking on my part, but time travel is a thing... I think. It's all a bit strange, a bit creepy and a bit gross (dare I say Kafka-esque?) - what’s not to love? Well, maybe the controls, which I remember being somewhat cumbersome. The best thing about this is easily the music, mostly consisting of guitar- and synth-heavy prog-rock. Back then I'd often listen to the CD-audio via my stereo, here's a taste:
11. Soleil/Ragna no Centy (MD) - What it may lack in final polish, it more than makes up for by being highly charming, creative and looking and sounding very pretty. Reminds me a bit of Quintet's Soul Blader and Illusion of Gaia, both in terms of tone (some random weirdness and philosophical touches, talking to animals and plants) and gameplay (streamlined overworld-map).
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Post by ommadawnyawn2 on Feb 23, 2021 4:28:32 GMT -5
windfisch : Yeah I gave it some more thought afterwards and a revised list would look something like this: Wonder Boy III: The Dragon's Trap/Monster World II/Dragon's Curse (SMS/PCE) Monster Boy and the Cursed Kingdom (PC) Dragon's Curse Remake (PC)(Fan Remake) Landstalker: The Treasures of King Nole (MD) Secret of Evermore (SNES) (modded) Sylvan Tale (GG) Monster World IV (MD) Ori and the Blind Forest: Definitive Edition (PC, 2016) Guacamelee! Super Turbo Championship Edition (PC) Gargoyle's Quest (GB) Batman: Arkham Asylum: GOTY Edition (PC, 2010) Gargoyle's Quest II/Makaimura Gaiden: The Demon Darkness (NES, 1992/GB, 1993) Final Fantasy Adventure/Mystic Quest/Seiken Densetsu (GB) Golvellius: Valley of Doom Shaman King: Master of Spirits (GBA, 2004) Crystalis/God Slayer (NES) (w/ mods) Okami (PS2)? Darksiders II: Deathinitive Edition (PC) King Colossus (MD) Dragon View/Super Drakkhen (SNES) Wonder Boy in Monster World/Monster World III (MD) Mystical Ninja Starring Goemon (N64) Goemon's Great Adventure/Mystical Ninja 2 Starring Goemon (N64) Adventure Island IV (NES) Legacy of Kain: Soul Reaver (PS1) Alundra (PS1) (unmodded) Crusader of Centy/Soleil Beyond Oasis/The Story of Thor (MD) Shin Maou Golvellius (Golvellius 2)(MSX) Soul Blazer (SNES) AI4 I remember as mostly using a hub and spokes structure with dungeons but it's not exactly focused on puzzles. Sylvan Tale did have a pretty nice OST, don't remember too much about the story beyond the intro and early game. Yeah it's an unofficial remake based on the PCE ver. which ups the difficulty quite a bit, adds another color tier of enemies, a couple of bosses, repurposes the charm stones and has a completely different world layout. You might have problems getting it to run on a modern OS though.
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Post by dsparil on Feb 23, 2021 8:15:29 GMT -5
I would say my favorite that is unquestionable a Zelda clone is Landstalker despite the many ways that it seems actively hostile towards people trying to actually beat it. It's a shame that Climax went out of business without ever remaking the game for the 3DS because the many jumping puzzles would have greatly benefited from having actual depth.
I like Blood Omen a lot although slightly more for being the start of a better series that's less Zelda derivative than for the game itself.
I wouldn't say Entomorph is like Zelda at all; it's a fairly standard PC style action-RPG. It's also super glitchy to the point that I've never been able to finish it. Cyberlore's earlier Al-Qadim: The Genie's Curse unquestionably feels like one down to having a charged spin attack although it doesn't stick to the general overworld + dungeon formula. It wouldn't say it's among my favorites since it's part of the "push out everything we can before we lose the D&D license" phase of SSI's history, but the Arabian setting is fairly unique.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2021 9:01:29 GMT -5
windfisch - Disagree on the LA remake. I found the art really leant itself to the dreamlike atmosphere of the game. I do agree on Minish Cap, it really is quite a lovely looking game. I keep meaning to post it in the sprite art thread when I get some time on my PC (and it works). And yeah, I find Link Between Worlds an ugly game also. I really don't know what happened there. Didn't get as far as Neutopia II, but I think that logic makes sense . Seriously though, Neutopia isn't really that bad, just doesn't do anything to stand out on its own. On another note, I find the Ys games to be pretty similar to Zelda, despite being JRPG's. Is there place for those on the list?
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Post by ommadawnyawn2 on Feb 23, 2021 11:52:27 GMT -5
I think the Ys games are in their own niche with their combat focus, some harsh level gating and general lack of puzzles but would mention Ys IV (PCE CD) at least as it had more of them and more in the Zelda-style IIRC. I still need to play Oath in Felghana onwards.
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Post by dsparil on Feb 23, 2021 12:47:18 GMT -5
Ys and Zelda were both inspired by Hydlide so they're parallel to each other in their first/earliest games. They both deviate from Hydlide in different ways. Zelda expands the gameplay while Ys I/II puts more focus on the story and setting. I wouldn't say Ys and Zelda have much in common overall, but it's hard to not see Ys III as being directly inspired by Zelda II.
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Post by windfisch on Feb 23, 2021 14:35:23 GMT -5
ommadawnyawn2Admittedly, Adventure Island IV has some similarities to Zelda, like exploration, item-based progression and a shop here or there, but overall the RPG elements are rather minor. Super Adventure Island II by comparison is much closer to Zelda 2. Sylvan Tale’s music is pretty pretty good, though I found some of the tracks don’t lend themselves to be listened to for longer periods of time. excelsior Well, I don’t hate Link’s Awakening’s remade graphics. If they weren’t so terribly glossy, I might even enjoy them. And I probably wouldn’t even call A Link Between Worlds “ugly” either. It just looks very bland and uninspired to me. Neutopia II’s controls are about the only thing that set it apart from it’s predecessor, otherwise it’s pretty much Neutopia 1,5. And yes, they’re both blatant Zelda-clones. That said, I actually enjoy them more than the NES original. dsparil It’s been over twenty years since I last played Entomorph, so you might be right that it’s not the most Zelda-like. Though I remember it featuring Sokoban-style puzzles and such, so at least it wouldn’t be a pure dungeon-crawler. About it being glitchy, maybe, I can’t remember. But it sure is buggy. (And this season’s “least original pun”-award goes to ...) Continuing my list: 1. Illusion of Gaia (SN) – It’s more streamlined/less open in terms of progression than your average Zelda. But at the same time this allows for a much more involved story and characters you really can invest in. Being a Quintet game it doesn’t shy away from heavier themes, while leaving enough room for more lighthearted, even downright silly moments. And the music is just lovely, always hitting the right chords with me.
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Post by ommadawnyawn2 on Feb 23, 2021 16:05:10 GMT -5
True, and what it doesn't get from there it takes from Monster World. I don't think either had exp point leveling. But I did prefer AI4. GG/SMS music tends to grate a bit in the long run unless it's really out of the ordinary sound design-wise. Edit: I hope this isn't completely dead because the original IoG translation was kind of rough at times. www.terraearth.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=60657&sid=acd94caaec5e6e8edae9e38f729f1286
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Post by windfisch on Feb 23, 2021 20:07:34 GMT -5
Yeah, I wish I enjoyed Super Adventure Island 2 more than I actually did - I too had more fun with Adventure Island 4.
I also agree that only a few selected GG soundtracks actually manage to stand out (as opposed to a bunch on the Game Boy), mostly those composed by Koshiro/Kawashima (GG Shinobi 1+2, Batman Returns, Sonic 1, Streets of Rage 1+2).
A proper Illusion of Gaia translation would be interesting. I think I also played the German version (renamed "Illusion of Time" for some odd reason) at one point and I wonder if that is actually preferable to the English one. Though since Claude Moyse, one of Nintendo of Europe's localizers at the time, worked on it, that is questionable. He was rather infamous for inserting his own flavor into his translations (like a dick/condom-joke in Link's Awakening) and his writing was generally not that amazing from what I remember.
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Post by spanky on Feb 23, 2021 20:46:18 GMT -5
Super Adventure Island II is good but if I recall it's got a ton of backtracking and sometimes it's hard to remember where the hell you were supposed to go. Definitely has some pretty obvious Zelda 2 influences.
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Post by windfisch on Feb 23, 2021 22:13:18 GMT -5
Super Adventure Island II is good but if I recall it's got a ton of backtracking and sometimes it's hard to remember where the hell you were supposed to go. Definitely has some pretty obvious Zelda 2 influences. Sounds about right.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 24, 2021 0:19:01 GMT -5
I thought it would be helpful (not to mention a good use of the evenings insomnia) to categorise the different types of Zeldalikes into the 3 types - overhead, side scrolling and 3D. I've only included games with a Zeldaish structure and not games people have mentioned that otherwise play like Zelda. Please let me know if I need to add/remove anything. Sidescrollers: | Adventure Island IV | Battle of Olympus | Dragon View/Super Drakken | Gargoyle's Quest | Gargoyle's Quest II | Guacamelee: Super Turbo Championship Edition | Monster Boy and the Cursed Kingdom | Monster World IV | Ori and the Blind Forest | Shaman King Master of Spirits | Super Adventure Island II | Wonder Boy in Monster World III/The Dynastic Hero | Wonder Boy III: The Dragon's Trap/Dragon's Curse (Original) | Wonder Boy III: The Dragon's Trap/Dragon's Curse (Fan Remake)
| Wonder Boy III: The Dragon's Trap/Dragon's Curse (Official Remake)
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Top Down & Isometric: | Alundra | Blood Omen: Legacy of Kain | Crusader of Centy/Soleil | Crystallis/God Slayer | Final Fantasy Adventure/Mystic Quest/Seiken Densetsu | Golden Axe Warrior | Golvellius: Valley of Doom | Golvellius II (Shin Maou Golvellius) | Illusion of Gaia/Illusion of Time | King Colossus | Landstalker: The Treasures of King Nole | Mantra | Neutopia | Soul Blazer | Sylvan Tale | Terranigma |
3D: | Batman: Arkham Asylum | Beyond Good & Evil | Darksiders II | Mystical Ninja Starring Goemon | Mystical Ninja II Starring Goemon/Goemon's Great Adventure | Okami |
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Post by windfisch on Feb 24, 2021 5:54:53 GMT -5
Soul Reaver is of course "3D", I think you meant to put the other Legacy of Kain, Blood Omen, under "top down". Sylvan Tale belongs there, too. Another Zelda 1-inspired one that I'm fond of is the DOS classic(?) God of Thunder, a game that is freely available these days (including Steam). Story is not really of concern here and what's there is tonally very tongue in cheek. There's also no real distinction between overworld and underworld (no dungeons, so to speak), even towns are populated by enemies. Instead, nearly every screen is a convoluted puzzle (there also seems to be a Lolo/Eggerland influence), while backtracking only plays a minor role. And being a shareware game originally means that it's divided into three indiviual chapters. Overall it plays a bit faster and looser than Zelda and it's pretty tough, frustratingly so at times. But it's still rather charming and your main (or only?) weapon, a boomerang-like hammer, is fun to mess around with. You'd be correct to conclude that it should sit right at the #51 spot.
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