|
Post by davidpacman on Sept 3, 2021 12:11:18 GMT -5
I've been thinking about Konami a lot lately. Going back to their NES catalog shows that they were once a great developer, arguably superceding Capcom in sheer volume and quality of releases. Obviously later on they would be universally known for Metal Gear and Silent Hill, which are well deserved, but I tend to remember them more for stuff like Gradius, Twinbee, Xexex, Mystic Warriors and Axelay. Just so much quality.
So what happened? Why are they a non-entity today, when their once rival, Capcom, is currently flourishing?
If you trace their history, I believe they started their fall in 1995, when they became a holding company and spread their development teams among several subsidiaries around the country. They still released great games, like Symphony of the Night, Gradius Gaiden, Metal Gear Solid and Slent Hill. But you also have crap like Hybrid Heaven, Kensei, Gungage, and Deadly Arts.
Now, this might just be my opinion, but I feel like their output on PS2 was of noteably worse quality compared to their rivals. Why does Suikoden III look so poor compared to Final Fantasy X? Why do the 3D Castlevanias suck? Even my favorite Konami game from that generation, Gradius V, wasn't even made by them! I remember hearing a story about Hideo Kojima gathering a team from the Osaka studio for a meeting and screaming at them for delivering subpar products.
They basically outsourced everything when the HD generation hit, and while Capcom did that as well, they bounced back. But Konami didn't. Why? Do their staff simply lack the talent to make something worthwhile? Are the noteably awful working conditions preventing people from working at their true potential in fear of being demoted? Do the rumors of the executives being involved with the Yakuza hold any weight?
What do you guys think? I just think it's sad, that one of the best developers of the 80s fell so far, when they have the money and resources to continue being great.
|
|
|
Post by vnisanian2001 on Sept 3, 2021 13:33:37 GMT -5
It is a sad, sad, fall. Don't forget their history with the MSX; they were essentially the de facto developer for that home computer.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 3, 2021 13:53:49 GMT -5
I think there's an interesting discussion to be had about the change in Konami's approach to game development, however the premise of the opening post is based upon the perspective of a fan of their old product looking from the outside. Whilst you compare Konami repeatedly unfavourably to Capcom the reality is that Konami makes a lot more money than Capcom does and has shown tremendous growth from a change in strategy both within and outside of the field of video games.
Konami continues to gain huge amounts through their Yu-Gi-Oh Ip, ongoing series such as Powerful Pro and has successes in the mobile market as well as through developing games for Nintendo Switch that have strong performance particularly in Japan. They have primarily moved from AAA development into making small, low risk high reward products. A couple of specific successes - Super Bomberman R sold more than a million copies and has since switched to an online model. Last years Momotaro Dentetsu has sold over 2.5 million copies and is their biggest ever performer in the Japanese market.
On the subject of quality there is more to be said here, because it's more subjective and this being a forum of older enthusiasts we are of course going to have fond memories of their old titles. I think you get a bit stuck on the idea of outsourcing games as a negative though. Outsourcing is simply the reality of modern game development and any sizeable game will have some degree of outsourcing at least. Companies choose to outsource rather than grow their employee base in order to allow for greater flexibility and reduced financial commitment. Further internally developed projects not meeting the critical acclaim of Capcom's doesn't relate to a 'lack of talent' or 'awful working conditions'. All of these factors are simply due to business decisions as to how much development resources to assign to specific projects.
Do I think the current state of Konami is sad? No. I enjoyed their products when they released ones that appealed to me and I shall continue to do so. Do I prefer Capcom's output in the current day? Sure I do. But I don't think Konami needs to continue to operate based on the expectations of their older fans.
|
|
|
Post by dsparil on Sept 3, 2021 14:36:39 GMT -5
One thing to consider is that Konami is more diversified than Capcom. Half their employees (about 5,000) are apparently tied to a gym chain they operate which I had no idea even existed. They don't really need to operate in the traditional console market in order to survive as a company. It's also worth noting that they never gave up on coin-op Bemani games in general or Pro Evolution Soccer.
On the more recent end, dumping a bunch of money into MGSV was probably a major factor. I might be misremembering the scale, but part of the plan for it was that the engine would be the basis for their games across the company, but it took too long for it to get to a usable point. Development started right after MGS4, and I don't think they were expecting a 6 year turn around until something would be released on the engine.
If you look at their financial statements, they did take a hit in gross revenue after mostly leaving the console market, but their overall gaming profits actually went up quite a bit and have stayed there. From a purely business perspective, what they did completely makes sense even if it did lose them a lot of good will. Super Bomberman R was a big hit and probably cost pennies to make. Low cost / low risk has definitely been their MO the last few years.
|
|
|
Post by davidpacman on Sept 3, 2021 15:26:47 GMT -5
So, to start, I don't actually have a problem with outsourcing as a concept. Everyone does it nowadays but usually only in a support capacity. I'm talking more about when the outsourcers lead on a project (and even then, some of Capcom's outsourced games are quite good like Bionic Commando Rearmed and I thought DmC was way better than the fans give it credit for). But I think the track record for a lot of these projects speak for themselves, which is why Capcom leads development internally now. And they've been killing it.
You guys are making great points about their business being run well, but I'm not an investor, I'm just a guy who likes video games, and Konami simply isn't making good video games anymore IMO.
My point about awful working conditions isn't just a random attack by the way, I'm referring to this article from a while ago. I really do belive that game developers won't give their best if they're constantly in fear for their jobs.
I would like to have a discussion about their approach to game development, but they don't really make anything anymore besides, as dsparil mentioned, Bemani and PES. I think their wikipedia page must be out of date, there's no way Konami Digital Entertainment, their only internal dev studio, has over a thousand employees. What are they doing!?
If the executives simply don't want to be a game company anymore, that's certainly their right. I'm just saying it sucks, mainly because there are plenty of great IP the company owns that will likely never be properly utilized again. Unless you really like Pachinko.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 3, 2021 16:02:08 GMT -5
So, to start, I don't actually have a problem with outsourcing as a concept. Everyone does it nowadays but usually only in a support capacity. I'm talking more about when the outsourcers lead on a project (and even then, some of Capcom's outsourced games are quite good like Bionic Commando Rearmed and I thought DmC was way better than the fans give it credit for). But I think the track record for a lot of these projects speak for themselves, which is why Capcom leads development internally now. And they've been killing it.
You guys are making great points about their business being run well, but I'm not an investor, I'm just a guy who likes video games, and Konami simply isn't making good video games anymore IMO.
My point about awful working conditions isn't just a random attack by the way, I'm referring to this article from a while ago. I really do belive that game developers won't give their best if they're constantly in fear for their jobs.
I would like to have a discussion about their approach to game development, but they don't really make anything anymore besides, as dsparil mentioned, Bemani and PES. I think their wikipedia page must be out of date, there's no way Konami Digital Entertainment, their only internal dev studio, has over a thousand employees. What are they doing!?
If the executives simply don't want to be a game company anymore, that's certainly their right. I'm just saying it sucks, mainly because there are plenty of great IP the company owns that will likely never be properly utilized again. Unless you really like Pachinko.
I think your core premise of Konami not making games we members of this forum would enjoy is an agreeable one for sure, however I think you've muddied your point a little by coming from various different angles. On the outsourced front - Nintendo as an example is a company that outsources a great number of their projects and we wouldn't argue that those were not of a high quality. Some use internal leads and some external outsourced ones. Smash Bros for instance has an outsourced lead and is one of the most acclaimed series in the industry. I think that using an internal lead or external one should be based on expertise on a case by case basis. What is particularly relevant is that Nintendo has IP that have had new life breathed into them due to an outside developer making a pitch (Metroid and Advance Wars for instance). The same could happen for Konami properties. On the subject of poor working conditions, I'm not suggesting these don't exist - as is the case of many prominent gaming companies. What I'm saying is the quality difference you're seeing has to do with the fact that the games are developed over a shorter time period with less people. Don't forget games like The Last of Us and The Witcher 3 are games developed with poor treatment of staff and yet are highly acclaimed. AAA games are made by throwing huge money at the projects and giving a great deal of time to develop. Also you say they're not developing any games, yet I guess you missed the ones I mentioned in my initial post such as Powerful Pro, Yu-Gi-Oh, Super Bomberman R and Momotaru Dentetsu. It's fair enough you might not care for those games, but they are Konami games. They haven't exited game development, but they instead engage in disparate markets. I can see where you come from with your initial approach in comparing Konami to Capcom. In the 80's to early 90's their output was directly comparable. I think Konami pushed in a different direction around the PS1 as you indicated in your OP.
|
|
|
Post by davidpacman on Sept 3, 2021 17:14:07 GMT -5
Yeah, I'm not a professional writer so I'm sure my posts are disorganized. It's just something I wanted to talk about.
Nintendo really doesn't outsource that often. Smash Bros is only a Nintendo game insofar that it contains Nintendo characters and is published by them. It was originally conceived (and continues to be directed by) Masahiro Sakurai and developed by HAL Labs. The few instances they outsource they utilize companies they have close ties to, like HAL and Intelligent Systems. MercurySteam is a new one, but that's rare. Konami hasn't had a great track record with outsourcing, but you never know. Maybe the rumored Bloober Team-developed Silent Hill game will be good.
Super Bomberman R was developed by HexaDrive. I can't comment on the others since they didn't really come out over here in America. I know they've released some mobile stuff over here, but a lot of these seem to be developed in China. I really have no idea what they've developed internally over the last decade. Maybe that Castlevania game that came out in Canada and has already been discontinued? I know the new Getsu Fuma Den game was outsourced.
|
|
|
Post by dsparil on Sept 3, 2021 17:16:38 GMT -5
Konami did say in 2015 that they were exiting the console industry except for PES; the kept publishing the Power Pros baseball series too. Like I said, I'm very confident that delays in the Fox Engine completely messed up their long term plans. To stick with the Capcom comparison, they've had the MT framework since the start of the seventh generation and only got supplanted at the high end relatively recently with the RE engine obviously for RE VII originally. MT still gets used even in places you wouldn't expect like Ultra Street Fighter II or the Zero/ZX collection. Konami was late in moving towards that and got their version attached to a project that took too long to release. If there had at least been a useable engine around say 2010, things might look different now.
Konami obviously did not stick to that announcement which some divisions tried to walk back immediately anyway, but I do think it's telling that it's only been smaller projects that have mostly been externally developed. Most of their own staff would be working on PES since that's 750+ people on it's own. I would like them to come back in a big way at least with Castlevania. I didn't really like Bloodstained, and I think the action-RPG Castlevanias might be a Mega Man situation where they don't necessarily need the public face of the series to be able to put out a good new one. I'm still waiting for my game about the Battle of 1999 or some weird post-DoS sci-fi game!
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 3, 2021 17:43:11 GMT -5
To get to the meat and potatoes of the topic that you are looking for in my answer davidpacman I think the reasons I don't particularly miss Konami's prior approach to development are that I don't have a long history with some of their major series (Metal Gear, Castlevania for eg.). The series that I do like are arcade based such as Gradius and Sunset Riders. I would certainly be excited if those returned but as a rule I am not somebody asking for sequels of old favourites and am happy to leave a series in the past. The one game I would have asked for from Konami would have been a Parodius version of Gradius V simply because I loved that game and it would have been cool to see how creative they could go with a parody. The thing that bothered me more about Konami is that they bought Hudson Soft and they would have been better owned elsewhere. I did get over it though. Eventually.
|
|
|
Post by dsparil on Sept 3, 2021 17:47:22 GMT -5
Nintendo really doesn't outsource that often. Smash Bros is only a Nintendo game insofar that it contains Nintendo characters and is published by them. It was originally conceived (and continues to be directed by) Masahiro Sakurai and developed by HAL Labs.
Maybe that Castlevania game that came out in Canada and has already been discontinued? Smash is actually co-developed with Bandai Namco these days. Nintendo does work with third parties more often than it seems since they're smaller than people probably think and have staff working on hardware too. Castlevania: Grimoire of Souls is actually coming back soon as a non-F2P game on Apple Arcade for all its supported platforms; it's actually a really good service. Apple only requires an exclusive on mobile so it might see a regular console release too.
|
|
|
Post by Snake on Sept 3, 2021 19:02:42 GMT -5
For me, it just appears to be a matter of running a business for Konami. Console gaming is but one revenue stream, where the return-on-investment has seen diminishing returns. I love the heyday of Konami's Contra, Castlevania, Metal Gear, Genso Suikoden, Twinbee, licensed 4~6 player arcade bonanzas and music/lightgun games, etc as much as anyone. Whoever's getting together, getting votes on where to take the company and run the ship that is Konami, wherever that ship is sailing, it's not towards video games anymore.
You also have to think about the talent that was at Konami as well. There's a certain point where development talent migrate. Like to a company like Treasure, Rabbit and Bear Studios, Kojima Productions, ArtPlay, et al. Nintendo and Capcom can be more consistent, because they still manage a way to retain their development and design talent. Different company cultures.
|
|
|
Post by lurker on Sept 3, 2021 19:43:31 GMT -5
I hope they can outsource RKA to some other team. The series should have been larger than it was.
|
|
|
Post by 🧀Son of Suzy Creamcheese🧀 on Sept 4, 2021 16:40:57 GMT -5
I think it's clear why Konami sucks nowadays: they just have better ways of making more money. But Konami's "death" has been a while back now, so I've gotten used to Konami being irrelevant in today's gaming landscape. I mean, I mostly think of Konami as a company being around in the 80's/early 90's, but there's no denying that they had at least a couple quite notable things going on in the 00's too. It sucks that Castlevania, Contra, Metal Gear, Gradius and Silent Hill are no longer around, because they're a big part of gaming history, but in a way it's more common for a company to be past their glory days than still be actively thriving, at least for the ones that have been around for a while, so I honestly can't even be that upset about it anymore. Konami is just one more in that pile of companies, along with Sega, Capcom (arguably), EA, Activision, Hudson, Namco, Taito, Rareware... Not that that means those companies can't be doing well these days (financially), but how many of the notable players of last century are still truly on top of their game these days? The thing that bothered me more about Konami is that they bought Hudson Soft and they would have been better owned elsewhere. This was something I was kinda pissy about too, but I just now realized there aren't that many Hudson Soft series I really care about or can even name. I do think it kinda sucks when one company is absorbed by another and then we're supposed to act as if it's part of one family. Like, are there even any Hudson franchises referenced in Super Bomberman R? I feel it's only Konami series.
|
|
|
Post by ZenithianHero on Sept 5, 2021 15:11:50 GMT -5
Konami been good on retro releases. The TG16 Mini is excellent. The Castlevania and Contra collection worth getting. No idea what they are doing on the development side, I enjoyed Super Bomberman R, but I think continuing with legacy content is a good strategy for now.
|
|
|
Post by shelverton on Sept 6, 2021 3:36:40 GMT -5
Lately I’ve actually been more concerned that Konami IS in fact still around making video games. May sound harsh but If Contra: Rogue Corps is the level of quality we should expect from them these days I don’t see the point of them being around anymore. I am happy to play their old games, and any clone/homage that finds its way to Kickstarter.
|
|