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Post by dsparil on Feb 20, 2022 8:40:40 GMT -5
Adventure, Graphical- Maniac Mansion. I've constantly said that I prefer LucasArt's adventure games to Sierra's, and the very first one is still great in its original incarnation. For a not really counting choice, Al Lowe's first game for Sierra, a simple adaptation of The Dark Crystal titled Gelfling Adventure. It's a multiple choice game using graphics from Sierra's fuller adaptation, but it includes the action "SCREAM FOR A WHILE" which is the greatest adventure game command of all time.
Adventure, Text - Zork III. It's the first game in the series that is mostly it's own thing as the other two were made up existing content. III includes the scant parts that were still unused (and conceptually fit) from the original large mainframe game. It has a whole lot more text than Infocom's earlier games despite being the same size for engine reasons I won't get into.
First Person Shooter - Catacomb 3-D. I've said this before, but Catacomb 3-D suffers in popular consciousness since id made it for Softdisk so it didn't have a shareware model to spread it wide. It's basically EGA fantasy Wolf3D, but it includes features like destructible walls, area descriptions and a hub for the second half that make it more complex than Wolf3D.
Platformer, 2D - Super Mario Bros. - It's such a huge epochal shift that still holds up today.
Platformer, 3D - Super Mario 64. I like Jumping Flash, but the fact that it's first person makes it a different kind of game entirely. There aren't many other pre-SM64 3D platformers, and the most prominent, Bug!, is barely one.
Racing - Pole Position. There's only one track, but you learn that track very well and all the ins and outs of the collision detection over time. Racing games earlier than this don't come off as convincing to me. Graphics and content aside, it plays exactly the same as games released much later.
RPG, computer - Ultima IV. I'd say this is when computer RPGs started to get to a scope closer to what people might expect today. The other option is Bard's Tale from the same year (1985) for a dungeon crawler. If you include mostly graphical remakes, I think you can actually go back all the way to Wizardry. I wouldn't want the play the original Apple II version, but the SFC port doesn't change much aside from giving thieves the "hide in shadows" sneak attack option they gained in a later entry.
RPG, console - Dragon Quest. It's both so ridiculously influential and still fun today. The other options would be Final Fantasy or Megami Tensei, but FF has so many bugs and the first MT really needs technical advancements that weren't available until the sequel.
Shooter, horizontal - Gradius. I would even go with its predecessor Scramble, but it might be a little too early.
Shooter, rail - Space Harrier. The original is still a very fun game assuming the port is decent.
Shooter, vertical - Xevious. Still so fun with an adaptive difficulty most games didn't copy.
Survival Horror - Alone in the Dark. The first game is still very playable today. The adventure/action balance is titled a lot more towards to adventure than most games in the genre including its own sequels which were made without the creator of the game. I think you could technically go back even further e.g. Sweet Home, but the template for the genre is Resident Evil which took cues from here so those feel fundamentally different.
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Post by ommadawnyawn2 on Feb 20, 2022 19:30:53 GMT -5
Nice post there.
For WRPGs I could probably go further back but I just haven't gotten around to playing through games like U4-7, Dark Sun, Darklands or Pool of Radiance yet. I suppose I could count Star Control 2, even though there's no leveling and you customize a ship instead of a humanoid char or party.
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Post by spanky on Feb 20, 2022 19:59:16 GMT -5
dsparil, big agree on Dragon Quest. I didn't play it until the mid-2000s and once I made peace with the fact the game was mostly grinding, I had a ton of fun with it. It's just barest of elements for a JRPG but it works.
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Post by dsparil on Feb 22, 2022 8:18:51 GMT -5
Nice post there. For WRPGs I could probably go further back but I just haven't gotten around to playing through games like U4-7, Dark Sun, Darklands or Pool of Radiance yet. I suppose I could count Star Control 2, even though there's no leveling and you customize a ship instead of a humanoid char or party. I think one of the problems with computer RPGs in the 80s and early 90s is that the UIs tend to be pretty bad. It's manageable, but they can be completely unintuitive without the manual. Have you looked at the CRPG Addict blog? He's up to 1993 now. He does rank them but only seems to keep a top 20 or something like that in the side bar. It's a decent list although I don't think most people would rate the later Gold Box games as highly. They didn't have as close an involvement from TSR as PoR did, and they start running into engine limitations due to SSI's persistence in supporting the C64 well beyond anyone else. Dark Heart of the Uukrul is #7, but it's an awful game with an AI that seems to act completely randomly. There's also a "Must Play" list below it that's less idiosyncratic.
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Post by ommadawnyawn2 on Feb 22, 2022 12:26:00 GMT -5
Yeah, I mean I struggle to go back to various JP ones for that reason (and the grinding) so it might be hard to enjoy some of them now. Been waiting for remakes for a bunch of them; I think there was a remaster for Bard's tale fairly recently, but I want something along the lines of mid-late 90s standards remakes. I have played some ways into U7 and will probably play through that soon-ish, and I've tried U4 on SMS (don't remember why I didn't play further as it seemed decent). Will also play Ultima Underworld when the Unity version is patched some more.
I read that blog from time to time, it's good and I'm patiently waiting for him to get to where I started playing WRPGs instead of talking about Simon's Quest and basically unknown older games that he doesn't seem to like that much. I think we have different priorities on some aspects of the genre as well.
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Post by teroknor on Feb 22, 2022 15:45:07 GMT -5
I think one of the problems with computer RPGs in the 80s and early 90s is that the UIs tend to be pretty bad. It's manageable, but they can be completely unintuitive without the manual. Yeah, the relatively primitive UIs are one of the reasons I didn't necessarily want to go back into the 80s, even though Ultima IV and V (and III too) are no doubt great games still. But the 20+ keyboard commands might be a bit off-putting, not to mention the primitive graphics. The Ultimas do have great music scores (on select versions), though.
On something like The Bard's Tale, the old-school dungeon crawling where you basically have to draw graph paper maps or be totally lost might also be a bit hardcore. And while BT 1 and 2 might be manageable with one or two dozen dungeons levels, BT3 has 84 levels, which is totally nuts. Though I must admit I haven't really played any 80s WRPGs besides the Ultimas and the first Wizardry.
Dungeon Master might also still be worth a look.
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Post by Snake on Feb 22, 2022 19:22:43 GMT -5
Have to agree with dsparil on RPG's.
For PC, well, I'll say Ultima 3:Exodus. The FCI adaptation to NES was my first RPG game. Released in 1983, while NES got it in 1987. Pretty kickin' soundtrack. And I really like the idea of picking fights with random peasants and shopkeepers, until the town soldiers come after you.
For console, Dragon Quest/Dragon Warrior, 1986/1989. From Yuji Horii, iconic Akira Toriyama design art, and classical music from Koichi Sugiyama, 3 artists' combined talent have left a lasting experience. I can still replay it, more often than later RPGs. There is an elegance to its simplicity.
Belt-Action/Beat 'em up brawlers: Flat, 2-D - Spartan X/Kung Fu. 1984. (Very) Loosely based on Jackie Chan's Wheels on Meals, which got a title change of Spartan X for Japanese theatres. Climbing a pagoda with bosses that was more akin to Bruce Lee's Game of Death. Still, the action and controls work, with interesting enemies... like giant moths and a magician you can punch of headless. It's not half bad.
Movement on a 3-D plane - Double Dragon, 1987. I prefer this over 1986's Kunio-Kun/Renegade. Adding 2-player simultaneous action, with more vibrant graphics and extra moves. It's much more fun to play with a friend. Feels less tedious.
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Post by 🧀Son of Suzy Creamcheese🧀 on Feb 23, 2022 11:41:39 GMT -5
JRPG: Dragon Quest (1986). Like others have said, it holds up. Better than the original Final Fantasy and Phantasy Star, for sure. Even if it wasn't great, Dragon Quest II would beat Final Fantasy to release. 2D Platformer: Super Mario Bros. (1985). I'm not really counting Donkey Kong or other arcade/proto-platforming games. This is pretty much the first one, and the first great one. 3D Platformer: Banjo-Kazooie (1998). I haven't played SM64 in a while, but I'm not sure if I'd call it 'great'. Still very playable, but not as timeless an example of the genre as SMB1 was for 2D platformers. Roguelikes (as in, rogue lites): Toejam & Earl (1991). ommadawnyawn2 you have Crypt of the Necrodancer mentioned as the first great one, but I think we need to go 24 years earlier. First 'modern'/indie one would be Spelunky (2008) IMO, but TJ&E definitely belongs in the genre. (Point & Click) Adventure: Secret of Monkey Island (1990). Probably should check out Maniac Mansion some day, but I don't have much hope for other point & clickers from before the 90's. Sports: Ice Hockey (1988). FPS: DOOM (1993). Though I haven't played anything from before. Incidentally, the genre pretty much peaked here as well. Shmup: Xevious (1982). Mostly familiar with the NES version, to be honest. Metroidvania: Metroid (1986). Duh. Simulation: Rollercoaster Tycoon (1999). Unless I'm missing something, as simulation is a bit of a nebulous genre. Puzzle: Tetris (1984). Fighting: Super Smash Bros. Melee (2001). It's debatable whether this game is still that great, but it ain't too shabby either, and it was fucking amazing back in the day. Zelda-like: The Legend of Zelda (1986), or at the very least Zelda II (1987). Beat-em-up: Kung Fu (1984). I've only really played the NES version. Racing: F-Zero (1990). I'm probably missing something obvious from before this one. Sports: Nintendo World Cup (1990), NHL '94 (1993), Tony Hawk's Pro Skater (1999) What does that mean? These are a decade apart.
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Post by ommadawnyawn2 on Feb 23, 2022 17:00:01 GMT -5
It means I basically skipped sports games during the 5th gen. Was listing the earliest 3D game after the 2D one(s) in most cases. Also can't say there's a great 2D skating game from before that. My unpopular take on JRPGs is that they're not really worth playing until FF5 or so without mods or GG codes. Re: Toejam & Earl. I love the vibe and ideas of TJ&E, it's a nostalgic game for me, but honestly had more fun with the sequel overall when I replayed them more recently. The new one disappointed me a bit, but was alright.
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Post by Snake on Feb 24, 2022 12:55:22 GMT -5
It means I basically skipped sports games during the 5th gen. Was listing the earliest 3D game after the 2D one(s) in most cases. Also can't say there's a great 2D skating game from before that. My unpopular take on JRPGs is that they're not really worth playing until FF5 or so without mods or GG codes. 2-D Skating?! It's all about Roller Games on NES! As pre-FF5 RPG's go, you didn't think Final Fantasy IV and Dragon Quest V as worthy? Oak stake to my heart man!
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Post by ommadawnyawn2 on Feb 24, 2022 13:18:01 GMT -5
Hmm nah man. Nice music though. JRPGS: Well, maybe DQV then which I haven't played much of yet. I did also like the SNES remake of DQ3 well enough (though I emulated and could fast forward whenever it got tedious). Not sure about DQ4. I enjoyed the story and characters of FF4 (mostly as a farce/comedy and playing the J2E translation), as well as the music. But wouldn't want to play the SNES original without mods and/or codes.
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Post by windfisch on Mar 3, 2022 2:46:10 GMT -5
Starting with some shooters (more genres to come):
Vertical Shooter: with Phoenix and Galaga the Space Invaders-genre became a bit more sophisticated and fun, but Zanac (Famicom/NES, 1986) is the earliest truly great one that I’ve played. I’d say mechanically all the fundamentals of a modern shooter are there.
Horizontal Shooter: Gradius (Arc, 1985) – From its robust power up system to its iconic stage designs and bosses, there is little that today’s hori-shooters do, that this one already didn't do back then.
Auto-runner/shooter: Moon Patrol (Arc, 1982) - combining shooting on both axes simultaneously with tight platforming, all while constantly being pushed forward, it is almost a genre of its own. And it remains as exciting and brilliant as it was 40 years ago. The Atari ST version is the one I played most.
Rail Shooter (3D): Star Wars (Arcade, 1983) – Short, but incredibly intense, with nicely scaling difficulty and neat details like Vader’s ship and voice samples from the movie. The wireframe-polygon-visuals still look great, due to their abstract quality. Grew up with the remarkably playable Atari ST version.
Third Person Shooter: Xybots (Arcade, 1987) – Still a lot of fun, not fully 3D (90° turns only), but it works fine. Maze-gameplay with keys, hidden rooms/exits also makes it almost a proto-Wolfenstein 3D. I actually prefer the Lynx version.
First Person Shooter: Doom (DOS, 1994) – no surprises there. Wolfenstein 3D’s visuals don’t quite work for me (no floor/wall textures, lack of visual landmarks makes orientation hard etc). Doom, on the other hand, is such a vast improvement: it still looks and sounds great and gameplay feels satisfying and versatile.
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Post by ommadawnyawn2 on Mar 3, 2022 15:21:55 GMT -5
Looks like I have a couple more games to try out!
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Post by windfisch on Mar 4, 2022 8:02:38 GMT -5
Racing: (2d): Excitebike (Famicom, 1984) - Just started getting into this game very recently, but I’m already impressed by its playability and depth. Pure racing fun. Point and Click Adventure: I’ve got fond memories playing Zak Mc Cracken, which is such a wonderfully weird game. But I haven’t played it in ages, so I’m not sure, if it holds up. The next potential candidate would be Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade. Visually it still looks incredible, but that one also has a couple of rough spots, iIrc. So the safe bet would be The Secret of Monkey Island (DOS/Amiga, 1990), combining the strengths of both aforementioned titles, namely whacky humor and dense atmosphere, while also being very player-friendly. Such a brilliant game.
Brawler (single plane): Probably TMNT Fall of the Foot Clan (Game Boy, 1990) - Spartan X was pretty good already, but this one adds some variety to the mix. It's short and rather easy, but of rather high quality throughout. Being one of my first own games, it also benefits from a slight nostalgia bonus.
Brawler (multiplane): Final Fight (Arc, 1989) - Brawlers in which enemies require multiple hits and combos to be defeated, really benefit from large sprites to give attacks some range and elaborate animations to sell the impact of punches and kicks. That's exactly what differentiates Final Fight from the likes of Double Dragon.
Versus Fighting: Samurai Shodown (Arc/NG, 1993) - Street Fighter II is no doubt a milestone and it remains kinda fun to this day. But in hindsight it feels like it's lacking in terms of depth and finesse, especially compared to later SF entries. To me the series first reached true greatness with Super Street Fighter II Turbo (1994), a refined culmination of tweaks and improvements from previous revisions. But by that time SNK had already caught up with Capcom and arguably surpassed them. I almost want to say Fatal Fury 2 (end of 1992) was already there, but I'd have to play more of it to make that judgement. However, while far from my favourite fighter and itself being surpassed by its direct sequel, I can say with confidence that Samurai Shodown still holds up rather well compared to the the best, like SF III Third Strike or Garou: Mark of the Wolves.
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Post by scroogemcclunk on Mar 11, 2022 22:59:36 GMT -5
Final Fight is way better than TMNT1 and came out the same year.
TMNT1 really isn't that great. It's a very shallow spammy game.
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