Current games from Nintendo that are "Nintendo Hard"?

[vnisanian2001]

In recent years, Nintendo has been criticized as being the very definition of handholding in gaming. But are there any recent games that they have made that would fit the description of the trope "Nintendo Hard"?

[excelsior]

I know it's not the point of this thread, but I wouldn't say the idea that Nintendo has become the definition of handholding in games is true, though they have certainly had software that has this issue (The Legend of Zelda: Skyward Sword comes to mind). I'd say that Sony has put out games that are far beyond anything Nintendo has been putting out in terms of handholding. Horizon and God of War have you regularly happen upon 'puzzles' and then immediately have a character blurt out the solution in dialogue, to the point that the entire games feel mind numbing. Even before Skyward Sword, Okami had it beat.

Moving on, I think that Nintendo hard never referred particularly to Nintendo's own games, but those appearing on the NES platform. Sure, Nintendo's games could be argued to have been more difficult back on the platform, but I'd argue it is as much down to the lack of saves on cartridges as anything. Most of their SNES games were notably fairly easy, especially if you just wanted to beat them.

Getting back to the question at hand, I'd say that highlights Nintendo's current approach. They design their games so the majority can see the credits, but up the ante in post-game content and in seeking 100% completions. Their Mario series in particular follows this content model. You can find strong challenges in Super Mario Galaxy 2, 3D World and Odyssey. Captain Toad's Treasure Tracker from the same team also applies.

If you want something that's considered hard throughout, then Donkey Kong Country Returns and its sequel Tropical Freeze would fit that bill, though whether you can consider them recent or not is debatable. Metroid: Dread featured quite a bit of challenge, but it was hardly Hollow Knight. I would personally point to Fire Emblem Fates: Conquest as a particularly difficult game Nintendo published in relatively recent years.

DLC's have also taken the opportunity to feature tougher content. New Super Luigi U has seen separate and combined physical releases since but was originally a DLC and targeted more enthusiastic players seeking a challenge. It features short stages, but often requiring a good degree of precision to pass. The Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild's DLC also contained a good deal of challenge to beat since if you die within a challenge you'll be sent back to the start.

[ruysan]

The whole concept of "Nintendo hard" is pretty damn stupid. Nintendo, even in the 80s, made the easiest games around. People are probably thinking about games of other publishers appearing on Nintendo platforms.

For me, who grew up on the ZX Spectrum, it feels even sillier. Even contra was easy compared to to the average spectrum game.

[ommadawnyawn2]

I know SMG2 isn't exactly current but some of the optional challenges are definitely old school hard. I feel Nintendo has done it this way more or less since the SNES days, letting most people see the credits.

Their hardest games off the top of my head:
Punch-Out!
SMB2 JP/Lost Levels
Zelda 2
Kid Icarus
StarTropics
F-Zero X
Fire Emblem: Monshō no Nazo

Nintendo hard is an annoying term since google simply wouldn't let me search for Nintendo's own harder games thanks to it.

[🧀Son of Suzy Creamcheese🧀]

Oct 16, 2022 1:34:19 GMT -5 excelsior said:

I know it's not the point of this thread, but I wouldn't say the idea that Nintendo has become the definition of handholding in games is true, though they have certainly had software that has this issue (The Legend of Zelda: Skyward Sword comes to mind). I'd say that Sony has put out games that are far beyond anything Nintendo has been putting out in terms of handholding. Horizon and God of War have you regularly happen upon 'puzzles' and then immediately have a character blurt out the solution in dialogue, to the point that the entire games feel mind numbing. Even before Skyward Sword, Okami had it beat.

Moving on, I think that Nintendo hard never referred particularly to Nintendo's own games, but those appearing on the NES platform.

This, pretty much.

There were some difficult 1st party games on the system, like Zelda II, and Metroid wasn't easy either. And games like the original SMB or LoZ are harder than newer entries (or even entries from 5-10 years later). But I don't think those define the term Nintendo Hard (even though Zelda and Metroid have some hard to find secrets that do relate a bit to the term IMO). The main one from Nintendo themselves was Super Mario Bros. 2 (JP), but that was deliberately meant for SMB pro players, and included a save function and an easy way to get 1ups, so they knew what they were doing there. I think the term Nintendo hard exists largely thanks to games where you have stuff like Castlevania's unforgiving knockback, Contra's limited lives (not that it's not doable with that amount, but it is intimidating at first), Ninja Gaiden's final onslaught of bullshit, and just a general lack of continues.

As for more recent Nintendo games that are just difficult in general. The two latest DKC games are definitely difficult and have post-game content that's just brutal. Splatoon 2's Octo Expansion was difficult, but that's also meant for players who're already invested in that game (not that there aren't design elements in place to make sure less skilled players can beat it). But I think apart from that, it's mostly optional content, or stuff like Fire Emblem's harder difficulty modes, or raising the intensity level in Smash Bros.' single player modes. Funnily enough, some of NSMB2's DLC level packs are some of Nintendo's most hardcore content in recent years (if you're counting 2012 as recent, that is). In today's gaming landscape, it's also often not a single player mode that's the main source of a game's challenge, but facing off against others. It's hard to compare difficulties of old vs new games if a lot of new franchises revolve around online multiplayer. Facing off against the toughest opponents online in Smash or Splatoon takes much more skill than beating a lot of hard NES games, for example.

But now I'm getting a bit sidetracked. As for that NES kind of difficult, I don't think there's anything that really qualifies outside of the more difficult moments of DKCR/TF, and Octo Expansion.

EDIT: Okay, yeah I forgot about Punch-Out for NES. That definitely is one of the most brutal games on the system from my experience.

[dsparil]

Yeah, "Nintendo Hard" was always about the NES as a platform not Nintendo's games themselves. I wish I could find an exact quote since I mention this often enough, but I remember reading that developers had trouble creating lower difficulty games coming off arcade quarter munchers. The NES also got games in a weird release order compared to Famicom so the more distinct eras of the FC got jumbled on NES with harder and sometimes unfair older games getting mixed in with newer ones that had a better handle on difficulty. Then there's also games that are buggy in ways that might not be readily noticeable as bugs e.g. weird hitboxes or cases like Castlevania which lost being able to save your game in the transition from FDS to NES.

For recent hard Nintendo games that haven't been mentioned, Metroid Dread is the big one. I think that hits the right balance of being tough but fair. If you cast a wider net, there's also games Nintendo published in some regions but not others like Ninja Gaiden 3 on Wii U (NA/EU) or SMT V (EU).

[spanky]

Nintendo definitely has it's tough games and challenging postgame content but nothing really is sadistic at the level of an 8-bit game that has finite continues and will send you back to the beginning of the game if you die at the final boss. This is IMO, 100 percent more demoralizing than anything in your average Souls game. Your most modern challenging games still have frequent checkpoints and allow infinite tries.

As far as the most challenging modern Nintendo games? Punch-Out Wii is ridiculously challenging, especially Title Defense Mode which goes out of it's way to mess with your instincts and timing. But that's...13 years old at this point. Holy crap. The Hard mode of Breath of the Wild is kind of ridiculous. I have no idea how you're supposed to fight the silver enemies.

[excelsior]

Oct 16, 2022 5:59:31 GMT -5 dsparil said:

For recent hard Nintendo games that haven't been mentioned, Metroid Dread is the big one. I think that hits the right balance of being tough but fair.

Didn't I say Metroid Dread? (Looks above) Whoops, I said Samus Returns. I meant Dread. I'll edit.

[mainpatr]

I just got ARMS for Switch the other day. Can't get past stage 4 on difficulty 1. Plus,it does the Street Fighter II thing there to see the ending\credits,you have to beat difficulty 4 or higher.

[jorpho]

The later Challenge Train stages in Rhythm Heaven Megamix are just sicknasty bananas. And there's some pretty decent bonus content behind them, so it's not just a matter of getting a slightly better number next to your save file.

[Snake]

Oct 16, 2022 5:59:31 GMT -5 dsparil said:

Yeah, "Nintendo Hard" was always about the NES as a platform not Nintendo's games themselves. I wish I could find an exact quote since I mention this often enough, but I remember reading that developers had trouble creating lower difficulty games coming off arcade quarter munchers. The NES also got games in a weird release order compared to Famicom so the more distinct eras of the FC got jumbled on NES with harder and sometimes unfair older games getting mixed in with newer ones that had a better handle on difficulty. Then there's also games that are buggy in ways that might not be readily noticeable as bugs e.g. weird hitboxes or cases like Castlevania which lost being able to save your game in the transition from FDS to NES.

I always got the notion, this was the case too.

So much of the older NES games - TMNT, Battletoads, Shadow of the Ninja, Ninja Gaiden, Blaster Master - they were all challenging games... with no save, no password feature.  Or just incredibly daunting (like Legacy of the Wizard).  Back when we were just kids, lucky to get a new game once a birthday or Christmas, with plenty of quality time to play the crap out of that one game enough to "git gud."

[Mr. Saturn]

Continuing on the Mario trend — Darker Side of the Moon from Odyssey was such a joyously hateful experience, continually kicking you while you're down content in the knowledge you're loving it.