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Post by ommadawnyawn2 on Feb 24, 2019 7:17:30 GMT -5
"I would bet" - It's ok when you do it though right? Haha. Already responded to this with: "and that non-annoying timbres is part of technique (which evidently evolved away from the rougher sound of some of Hubbard's tracks fairly quickly)". I'm personally far more tolerant of rough sounding music than the average person, being into stuff like noise, industrial and punk music, but I can make such a claim based on observation and previous experience and don't mind backing it up if you still don't want to drop that discussion. I mean there are modern pop songs that basically are C64 chiptunes with vocals and more modern production, and new games can get away with chiptune-style OSTs so I don't think you know what you're talking about. But I'll give you that there is a cutoff point at "instrumental" for some, that there can be an element of nostalgia to it and that people tend to gather around popular brands and people rather than around a particular sound chip which is also less known worldwide after its time than the NES's for example. Timbaland vs. C64 musician from a short documentary (use subs): www.youtube.com/watch?v=hzFp3rovfY0&t=11sI'll pull a phediuk here and say that I didn't dismiss the Droid track, I recognize the work put into it and just responded to what was worth responding to. The fact that I had included several Hubbard tracks on the vgm tribute page I linked to a couple of pages back (including Chimera and previously mentioned OSTs here) already shows this and you could've looked into it. For 1984, you're mostly right but Ballblazer seems to use several relevant techniques. Bass+backbeat drum and chords combo, echo, modulation, slides, a variety of envelopes and fleshed out solos. Then from 1983 there's MULE whose theme had solid noise drums in an otherwise pretty standard track, and Archon which shows how to make more interesting leads. There's also the demos, which I'm not too familiar with to be honest but it was easy to find this from 1984: www.youtube.com/watch?v=1vSNPCcDAAETracks 1, 4, 9 aren't far off from the better 1985 tracks, and composers might've known about this one or other demos. Hubbard was very talented and creative, but one can still see a progression leading up to 1985.
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Post by condroid on Feb 24, 2019 8:19:31 GMT -5
I can add that it (Droid) probably didn't inspire or remind of later electronic music that made more of a mainstream impact nor did it stay relevant like the comic bakery track did. IMO both of these pieces are actually cut from the same cloth: OMAHD mostly covers a JM Jarre song, who was also one of Galway's main inspirations. By what tangible measure is Comic Bakery more influential or relevant? BTW, I think both tracks (as well as Galivan) are pretty fantastic. What often gets lost in these discussions is that the way we listen to old game soundtracks today is very different from back then. These systems were usually hooked up to a tv/monitor with (comparatively) crappy sound output, and the old tv speakers basically acted as an additional filter/equalizer that changed certain characteristics of the sound. Some of the artifacts/abrasiveness that you guys are complaining about would not have been noticeable back then, simply because they were not reproduced by the speaker of an old CRT. These soundtracks were definitely not made with modern headphones or speakers in mind. Here are two recordings of Hubbard's F1 simulator tune, sorry about the poor quality, I couldn't find a better example on Youtube: Original SID recording Original SID recording via TV speaker What I find interesting is that for emulation of old graphics hardware it is exactly the opposite: most emulators feature various filters that recreate the scan lines, color bleed, blurriness, and often imperfect geometry of old CRT screens. But I can't think of any emulator that does the same for music and adds equalizer profiles to simulate old TV or monitor speakers. A couple of years ago I used a good microphone to do a spectrum analysis of my Commodore 1084s monitor and then created a profile for that. IIRC, the result was basically a low pass filter that removed anything above 8000khz.
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Post by phediuk on Feb 24, 2019 9:46:45 GMT -5
"I would bet" - It's ok when you do it though right? Haha. Already responded to this with: "and that non-annoying timbres is part of technique (which evidently evolved away from the rougher sound of some of Hubbard's tracks fairly quickly)". I'm personally far more tolerant of rough sounding music than the average person, being into stuff like noise, industrial and punk music, but I can make such a claim based on observation and previous experience and don't mind backing it up if you still don't want to drop that discussion. It's OK when I do what? Make an inference? Sure. I'm not projecting my taste onto what the "average person" thinks of early VGM since I already like Hubbard's stuff. I take it as a given that the "average person" doesn't care about any early VGM and assume they wouldn't like it. After all, if we're doing anecdotal evidence now, then my experience tells me that the "average person" would think literally any video game music from 1985 sounds like garbage, and that includes Galivan, that includes C64, that includes SID and OPL, and that also includes adjacent genres such as noise. I can make such a claim based on observation and previous experience. QED.
Glad you're into noise! Guess it's not so headache inducing then. I agree, it's cool!
Also I tried viewing your tribute page earlier but my ISP blocks it as a malware site. Is there a mirror?
As for the rest of the post, I'm glad you're acknowledging that Hubbard's stuff was groundbreaking rather than just "headache inducing", as that was literally the point I was trying to make originally. As far as I can tell there is no disagreement on this matter, so for god's sake, will you stop trying to make this into some personal slight. The big post you made was good. It is good you are trying to track down early VGM. You've done a good job. Now stop this. Thanks.
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Post by ommadawnyawn2 on Feb 24, 2019 9:48:20 GMT -5
condroid Interesting. I had heard that Jarre song but honestly struggle to hear the same song in OMAHD besides some chord sequences and a resemblance to the initial melody (except much faster and more aggressive)? In Jarre's song I can hear aspects that seem influential on much later dance/techno music in the chords and arps, bass and overall arrangement for sure, but OMAHD on the other hand feels more of its time besides just the roughness of the sound design; more like a late 70s-early 80s new wave/punk song or even polka music, heh. I explained why for Comic Bakery earlier but can add that the chord rhythms in tandem with the bass note on the first beat of a measure are also reminiscent of sidechaining: www.youtube.com/watch?v=SUYpssiZKs4&t=7m20The track lends itself easily to a techno remix like this, which I think was the one I played at that party but it's been a long time now: www.youtube.com/watch?v=CxPVll1_GBQThat is a fair point regarding playback medium, I kind of skipped over that now even though it is something I've tried to pay attention to with MD music for example (which fairly recently had a hardware emulating music player made for it though I don't think it's been incorporated into any games emulator yet). For better or worse, emulation is usually how people will listen to the songs these days so an octave 8 saw pattern will tend to really stick out in the mix. I always listen to the tracks with decent headphones though which I find makes things like that much less grating than on speaker setups when not tweaking the levels. --- phediuk I never dismissed Hubbard as a whole which is evident from my comment on the Droid track if you go back and read it, you misunderstood and your point was moot. You try to make it sound like I'm offended when you're acting that way yourself, and there wouldn't be an argument if you had been more tactful to begin with. Anyway, that's weird regarding the site being blocked. Maybe this link works?: minirevver.weebly.com/impressive-vgm-by-year.htmlWeebly occasionally has issues with chrome blocking access to some of their sites. There shouldn't be any malware though. Using chrome and norton myself.
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Post by phediuk on Feb 24, 2019 9:49:51 GMT -5
I can add that it (Droid) probably didn't inspire or remind of later electronic music that made more of a mainstream impact nor did it stay relevant like the comic bakery track did. IMO both of these pieces are actually cut from the same cloth: OMAHD mostly covers a JM Jarre song, who was also one of Galway's main inspirations. By what tangible measure is Comic Bakery more influential or relevant? BTW, I think both tracks (as well as Galivan) are pretty fantastic. What often gets lost in these discussions is that the way we listen to old game soundtracks today is very different from back then. These systems were usually hooked up to a tv/monitor with (comparatively) crappy sound output, and the old tv speakers basically acted as an additional filter/equalizer that changed certain characteristics of the sound. Some of the artifacts/abrasiveness that you guys are complaining about would not have been noticeable back then, simply because they were not reproduced by the speaker of an old CRT. These soundtracks were definitely not made with modern headphones or speakers in mind. Here are two recordings of Hubbard's F1 simulator tune, sorry about the poor quality, I couldn't find a better example on Youtube: Original SID recording Original SID recording via TV speaker What I find interesting is that for emulation of old graphics hardware it is exactly the opposite: most emulators feature various filters that recreate the scan lines, color bleed, blurriness, and often imperfect geometry of old CRT screens. But I can't think of any emulator that does the same for music and adds equalizer profiles to simulate old TV or monitor speakers. A couple of years ago I used a good microphone to do a spectrum analysis of my Commodore 1084s monitor and then created a profile for that. IIRC, the result was basically a low pass filter that removed anything above 8000khz. Condroid back with the goods again. Excellent post.
And yes, I agree it's easy to forget that "raw" recordings don't reflect how early VGM was actually heard. Old hardware naturally produced some noise that would soften the sound somewhat, and no one was using headphones back then.
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Post by psygnosis8 on Feb 27, 2019 10:25:55 GMT -5
I’m not much of a fighting game aficionado but I think matrimelee has some groundbreaking content that hasn’t been explored since, like an over-the-too absurd setting and moves like picking up and throwing the ref.
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Post by mainpatr on Feb 27, 2019 16:37:38 GMT -5
Was Spriggan Powered(SFC,1996) the first shmup to have bullet grazing for extra points?
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Post by condroid on Mar 1, 2019 16:33:09 GMT -5
condroid Interesting. I had heard that Jarre song but honestly struggle to hear the same song in OMAHD besides some chord sequences and a resemblance to the initial melody (except much faster and more aggressive)? In Jarre's song I can hear aspects that seem influential on much later dance/techno music in the chords and arps, bass and overall arrangement for sure, but OMAHD on the other hand feels more of its time besides just the roughness of the sound design; more like a late 70s-early 80s new wave/punk song or even polka music, heh. The track from OMAHD is based on an earlier demo Rob Hubbard created with studio equipment sometime around 1983/84, the similarities are more noticeable there. If we are talking about general sound design, one game that I always found impressive in that regard is Hawkeye. Today, the soundtrack is mostly known for the intro tune but there is a lot of other interesting stuff going on as well. First, there is the interactive loading music that allows the user to create their own mix from several rhythm patterns/leads. All the in-game tracks only utilize one channel which is usually some pumping rhythmic pattern. That leaves the other two channels for sfx, resulting in an audio backdrop that you don't get to hear very often in 8-bit music. And then there is the music (and animation) that plays while the next level is loading which is not an easy feat on the C64 either.
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Post by ommadawnyawn2 on Mar 1, 2019 18:40:01 GMT -5
^Didn't know about the loader tune being interactive there, nice find! That player avatar is hilarious btw. I think this is the first vocal track in an Amiga game (Mortville Manor, 1988)? The game also features that rudimentary speech synthesis but with a comic twist. www.youtube.com/watch?v=fmc3XjqGAx0Edit: Dunno if something similar came before, I mean probably, but this part from Bionic Commando (C64, 1988) is totally that same techno rhythm used later on in the Mortal Kombat movie theme for example: www.youtube.com/watch?v=B_rH87kPEqI&t=28sPhantasy Star III (MD) www.youtube.com/watch?v=NLzTU68E2Gg&t=40swww.youtube.com/watch?v=xyUIFtxxbF4While this OST was arguably a step back in several ways compared to its predecessor, it does feature a couple of interesting things: First, there's a rough transitional system which changes what music is playing during a battle depending on how your party is doing compared to your enemies. Second, the overworld theme actually evolves over the course of the game, with added harmonies as you progress.
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Post by phediuk on Mar 12, 2019 2:02:37 GMT -5
Is Fantasy Zone (arcade, March 1986) the first example of a "boss rush"? I.e., in the last level you fight all the previous bosses again, and then a unique final boss after that.
Also, is Fantasy Zone for the Master System (6/15/86) the first console game where every level has a unique boss battle?
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Post by phediuk on Mar 12, 2019 2:18:18 GMT -5
On a related note, I'm increasingly convinced that Ghosts n Goblins was a major milestone for game desig.
Released in September 1985, it contains the following features:
-Seven levels -Each level has unique background and foreground tiles -Each level has a boss battle, and there's multiple different bosses -Unique final boss,, not just a variation on a previous boss
-Music changes throughout the game--each successive pair of levels has its own tune
-Map screen between levels -Multiple subweapons, each with unique animations
-Multiple endings (i.e., you beat the game once for the bad ending, then again for the good one)
These features would become so commonplace within a few years (except, perhaps, multiple endings) that it's weird to even think about them being new things, but really, I think GnG was the first one to check all of these boxes. It's lie the standard checklist of features for arcade-style action games.
The closest antecedent, as far as I can tell, would be Gradius (Apr 1985), though even that recycles the "core ship" boss in each level (preceded by a unique "wave" each time, though--a clear predecessor to what we think of bosses now.) You might also point to Kung-Fu Master or Dragon Buster but those ones recycle content quite a bit.
Am I missing anything or was GnG really the pioneer here?
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Post by toei on Mar 12, 2019 8:18:08 GMT -5
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Post by ommadawnyawn2 on Mar 12, 2019 11:21:12 GMT -5
Space Harrier had a partial boss rush at the end. Also, are Ghosts n Goblins for the NES (6/13/86) and Fantasy Zone for the Master System (6/15/86) the first console games where every level has a unique boss battle?
In G&G three of the bosses are variations on a previous one so FZ is the only complete example. Nazo no Murasame Jou for FDS had 5 unique bosses and came before these, though the outdoor segments can be counted as separate levels and had no bosses. Zelda 1 had 6 unique bosses out of 8, or 7 counting the hydra variation, came before all of these and most of its bosses are more unique as well. Twinbee had 5 unique bosses, one per level before it loops, and was released around the same time as Zelda on NES. Then from a few months later there's Zanac which had 12 unique bosses (or 15 counting the variations on previous ones) and Space Harrier (SMS) with 14, or 16 with variations (in the SMS version there's a new boss after the boss rush). On PCs, Dragon Slayer II: Xanadu seems to have 4 different bosses but repeats 3 of them later on in the game - these were pretty impressive in terms of size and detail for 1985. Hero of the Golden Talisman (C64) had several bosses which were almost identical but required specific weapons to beat. King Kong 2 (MSX) from 1986 had 14 unique bosses. --- Forgot to post these japanese PC games (besides MSX) pages I put together recently: 80s90sFeed me info if you know more about any of these than I do, the 90s one is very much a WIP.
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Post by phediuk on Mar 13, 2019 14:57:52 GMT -5
Actually, stage 6 in Ghosts n Goblins does have you fight both previous bosses consecutively--the cyclops and the dragon--and then Satan right after that, and then it's off to the last boss immediately afterward. So I guess that counts as the first boss rush, albeit with only three of them. Fantasy Zone took the concept further though.
As for the question of "first game with a unique boss in every level", I'm now pretty sure that Kung-Fu Master (arcade, Dec 1984) holds the title, with its NES port, Kung Fu (Oct 1985) being the first console example.
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Post by Woody Alien on Jul 27, 2019 17:40:13 GMT -5
I heard that Gottlieb's Exterminator (1989) is the first example of game with 100% digitized graphics:
A bit of personal trivia: when I was a little kid I found the arcade cabinet at a seaside location, however it didn't work... but it left me an impression since it was shaped like a house and it had all these pictures of giant ugly insects, plus these disembodied hands and the game's logo formed with bones and a skull; let's just say it was a bit much for a young impressionable boy. I forgot about it until I found clips of the emulated game, but my original impression remains... It's just very creepy and bizarre, what with the digitized graphics, all the giant bugs inside those cramped tiny rooms, floating giant hands smashing everything but also traveling by van in the intermission between levels... it's all like a big fever dream, but at least it was an original concept that doesn't really have a following.
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