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Post by kobushi on Aug 31, 2009 19:00:21 GMT -5
Audience has a lot to do with it. Phoenix Wright appeals to a wide audience (hell, my wife played it), most of whom wouldn't know or even care to find out about some of the Japanese stuff that came up in the first game (tokusatsu shows, for example).
On the other hand, Persona 3 is a pretty hardcore RPG, so the target audience comprises more anime fans and long-time gamers who have more knowledge and interest in Japan than the casual gamer.
You're right that both games have excellent localizations. I've actually played PW1 in both languages, and the English version is impressive. I also picked up the English version of Persona 3 on a whim during my last trip to the States (it's soooo cheap there!!) Good stuff.
As for Persona 1... I've seen bits of the English version, and... ugh. I completely understand why they decided to Americanize it given the market back in 1996, but still... ugh.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 31, 2009 19:14:33 GMT -5
That clip of Popful Mail is painful. By comparison, check out the latest videos for Bowser's Inside Story. Effing brilliant.
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Post by cj iwakura on Aug 31, 2009 19:28:17 GMT -5
Keep in mind the year Popful Mail was released. Back then, having a localization like that was unheard of. Again, people take Working Designs for granted way too easily.
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Post by Discoalucard on Aug 31, 2009 19:38:58 GMT -5
I grew up with WD games, and I still love their localizations. The stuff they added to Popful Mail wasn't in the Japanese version at all, but it definitely fits the tone of the game, and adds plenty of personality to it.
The only thing I don't like of theirs were the scant specific names to pop culture (like the Bill Clinton line) and the difficulty tuning they did to a lot of their action games, despite their rationale that it guarded against games being returned.
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Post by Atma on Aug 31, 2009 20:13:06 GMT -5
I really can never fault Working Designs. They had heart and soul and actually worked with the script. Would you rather they have translated a bunch of anachronistic Japanese jokes we would never understand in a million years, or change them to anachronistic American jokes we will always get, even if they're "old" references? I'm sure there are Japanese gamers who groan at such things still in their games, but they're also signs of the times they were released. So a couple jokes out of an otherwise stellar script no longer work. That's extremely small compared to enjoying the rest of what people say.
The world needs more companies like them. Egg me all you want for saying this, but I'd rather have a dumb joke compared to a flat, overly-literal translation.
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Post by cj iwakura on Aug 31, 2009 20:17:45 GMT -5
I couldn't agree more.
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Post by Ryu the Grappler on Aug 31, 2009 20:44:48 GMT -5
I think whether doing a cultural localization or a direct translation depends on the context.
With the Ace Attorney series, it makes sense, since the games are a bit light hearted (for a series about murder investigations anyway) and the names of the characters are Japanese puns that won't make sense without explaining them or replacing them with similar puns.
On the other hand, I see no point of changing a series like Saburo Jinguji into Jake Hunter.
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Post by Weasel on Aug 31, 2009 20:47:35 GMT -5
While I do appreciate accurate translations for games where it's appropriate (Persona, of course, is an obvious contender - I couldn't bear to imagine a Japan in which people didn't use titles), but sometimes I do prefer a translation in which more liberties are taken, because what would FF6 be without some of the wittier lines from Kefka and Edgar? (The retranslation of FF6 kind of removed half the charm of those, particularly Locke's "And don't let a certain lecherous young king, who shall remain nameless, lay a finger on you!")
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Post by Dais on Sept 1, 2009 0:04:42 GMT -5
The world needs more companies like them. Egg me all you want for saying this, but I'd rather have a dumb joke compared to a flat, overly-literal translation. The problem with Working Designs is that it's hard to evaluate their work fairly. If you were a fan of them at the time, I'm sure they were charming as all hell - their localization work was genuinely innovative in tone and approach, not to mention fairly consistent in it's quality. They also helped release some titles that would likely have never made it over otherwise. Among companies that solely published, they were truly groundbreaking. But the thing is, for people like me who didn't experience much of their stuff, most of what we see when we look back is this. Not all of those complaints are equally valid, but they aren't exactly nitpicks. Working Designs packaging anticipated the age of the Limited Edition gimmicks, but that wasn't always a good thing. As mentioned previously, their attempts to re-balance games were well-intentioned for several reasons but could fall disastrously flat. Their work often dated itself in now painful ways. And the simple fact is, Victor Ireland's personal feelings (especially regarding working on certain platforms) basically led the company to it's eventual bankruptcy. That may seem like a sensationalization of what happened, but I think even Vic himself would have to admit it was more than the bureaucracy of Sony that led to WD's demise. He simply made poor choices. (I also have some objections which I admit I can't really fault them for, like the censorship of the Exile games)
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Post by wyrdwad on Sept 1, 2009 1:42:44 GMT -5
I don't think anyone's arguing that Working Designs was perfect - I think those of us defending them are just trying to say that compared to the competition of the day, Working Designs was a company that actually cared about what they did, and put effort into it, which was largely unheard of elsewhere. Vic and the rest of the gang were practically heroes to us in the mid-90s. (: Nowadays, though, yeah... you've got Alexander O. Smith, you've got 8-4 Studios in Shinjuku (an outsource company who are responsible for a LOT of the best modern game translations), you've got Atlus, you've got fan-translators who really know their stuff (the Mother 3 team, Deuce, *coughcough* myself *coughcough*), etc. It used to be rare for me to ever consider a game's translation anything more than "satisfactory"... but nowadays, I often find myself genuinely IMPRESSED by what I play. I recently picked up Steambot Chronicles: Battle Tournament on the PSP, and was blown away by what a great job Atlus did with its dialogue. And heck, they even pulled a Working Designs, and snuck in a pop culture reference - though only one, and it's very subtle (one of the deckhands at the shore quotes from Andy Samberg's "I'm On A Boat"). I do enjoy pop culture references, I'll admit... but I like them best when they're used sparingly, and subtly. (Another notable one is the Sanjaya Malakar reference in Brave Story: New Traveler, which was an 8-4 translation.) -Tom
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Post by Sketcz-1000 on Sept 1, 2009 13:36:26 GMT -5
Atma put it well.
I'm really fond of WD's localisations since they were funny, and they brought us games we'd otherwise never play. Their difficulty tweaking was annoying though. Exile 2 was rendered actually impossible due to this - I only completed it through hex editing various stats.
Also, I think they'd have been burned alive if they hadn't censored the Exile games - the religious stuff going on in those originally would have gotten a fatwa declared.
I'm really sad they never brought out Goemon on the PS2. Also, Vic was quite a cool guy to speak with. He really was a fan, rather than some corporate suit calling the shots. Which says a lot, about many things. Still, he has only my respect.
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Post by spotlessmind on Sept 1, 2009 15:05:01 GMT -5
I would not agree Alexander Smith’s tortured, pretentious writing represents good or appropriate translation work. Painfully contrived, faux-Victorian dialogue that reads like it was written by a high school English major who dresses up as Legolas at Renaissance Faires and speaks only in Lord of the Rings quotes is not what comes to mind when I think of graceful writing idioms.
Ted Woolsey was a lot closer to the mark, and is still one of the best and most earnest translators this industry has ever seen. It’s a real shame he left it.
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Post by Sketcz-1000 on Sept 1, 2009 15:12:36 GMT -5
He works for Microsoft at the moment - I think he's in charge of some division that deals with XBLA.
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Post by cj iwakura on Sept 1, 2009 17:42:34 GMT -5
Yeah, if there's one thing about Vic, he's a gamer, and anyone who's followed his posts and comments on any given podcast or message board knows that.
He's also very open to conversation. Back in the usenet days(daaaang this was years ago), Victor used to post on the Lunar boards.
It's really a shame they had such a hard time in the later years. It's like SCEA had it out for them. Not just Goemon, but forcing Growlanser II & IIIs release as one package.
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Post by wyrdwad on Sept 1, 2009 18:20:08 GMT -5
We are in disagreement, good sir. Smith tries to adapt his language to sound appropriate for the era in which the source material is set, and I think he does a damn fine job of it. I still consider Vagrant Story's translation to be one of the best of all time, and I find his translation of the Brave Story novel almost inspirational. In fact, Vagrant Story's translation specifically DID inspire me to take a similar approach with my own Xanadu Next fan-translation, so if you dislike that whole "painfully contrived, faux-Victorian dialogue that reads like it was written by a high school English major who dresses up as Legolas at Renaissance Faires and speaks only in Lord of the Rings quotes" approach, I'd advise you to stay away from my patch once it's released. (:
-Tom
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