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Post by derboo on Dec 4, 2010 19:05:17 GMT -5
Wasn't Amiga 1000 more personal computer than gaming device? You're probably right in questioning the statement, but I was thinking more in line with other home gaming consoles like Atari rather than computers which are always ahead in terms of technology but meant for different use. Well, before the NES came out, home computers had replaced consoles as game devices thanks to the crash and them becoming kinda-affordable. There just weren't any western game consoles on the market to compare the NES with. Only the Atari 7800 got re-released in an half-assed reaction to the NES' success, and even that could almost stand face to face with the NES in terms of hardware power (maybe except for maximum cartridge space, but I have no doubt they could have expanded that if they had tried).
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magus
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Post by magus on Dec 4, 2010 19:42:56 GMT -5
Haha, Tim Rogers isn't exactly the measure to put up when it comes to restraining pretentiousness, though. ahahahahah yea i'm not saying the game is art or not (i don't really care to begin with) i just didn't like how it was written for example seriously it's not enough to say that the beast is scary but "the black shape is a manifestation of the inner view we have of a monster" it just doesn't sounds natural at all,like do you think someone else would describe psycho shower scene with a similiar choice of word? imagine if someone went to talk about silent hill saying that "the mist represent our fear of the unknown!" or let's pick later,you talk about the alien companion "but when we meet the alien companion, we start seeing something very familiar to us; trust and friendship. In such a bleak and depressing situation that we find ourselves in, we clutch onto these familiar feelings and develop a strong bond and care for this friend, which becomes very evident as the game throws emotional triggers and challenges at us. When the alien is in danger, there's a rush of panic to help him and save him like he has saved you, when you are separated and cannot see him, he is a constant in your mind with questions of what he is doing, if he's okay, your mind is filled with worry and care." i swear this sounds EXACTLY like someone explaining why ico is good to someone who "didn't get it" and it really doesn't help the guy getting it,for the guy who "didn't get it" the game is like "there is a princess,you protect her,you drag her around,sometimes monsters try to kidnap her" but for the other guy the game is about "DEEP EMOTIONAL CONNECTION" and being the guy who "didn't get it" this is seriously baffling to me because that just doesn't tell me anything about the game at all as i said i don't really care if the game is art or not but the whole argument rubs me wrong... personaly i harkens game to movies or better yet anime (just see how many anime inspired videogame there are and vice-versa) so i don't really see why people are so fixated on this concept other than to make videogame sounds more self important to my eyes no matter what game,everytime you compare it to art you look to me the same as one of those evangelion kids if you know what i'm talking about oh it was weird for HG101 that it had an article about flashback but not of another world,so good job on that!
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Post by wyrdwad on Dec 4, 2010 19:55:54 GMT -5
Magus: So if I'm understanding this correctly, you're complaining about the use of educated prose and good vocabulary?
Yeah, that's... not a bad thing at all. I wish MORE people would write articles like that. Maybe then, I'd read articles on sites other than HG101 more often. (:
Good writing is ALWAYS a good idea. There's no need to "dumb down" one's writing simply because it's about video games. For me, none of your examples sound unnatural or pretentious, because THAT'S HOW I OFTEN TALK, AND THAT'S THE KIND OF THING I LIKE TO READ.
Bottom line, it's good writing, pure and simple. Good writing is always, ALWAYS welcome.
-Tom
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magus
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Post by magus on Dec 4, 2010 20:01:32 GMT -5
i'm just saying that what to you sounds like educated prose to me it sounds pretentious call me an ignorant oaf if you think otherwise
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Post by Ryu the Grappler on Dec 4, 2010 23:07:11 GMT -5
I agree, the prose does come off as a bit pretentious. And to be honest, I think Out of This World is an okay game, but a bit overrated. To me, games like Super Castlevania IV and Super Metroid are greater pieces of art than Out of This World.
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Post by wyrdwad on Dec 4, 2010 23:34:54 GMT -5
As games, I'd agree. But as works of art, I don't think either SC4 or Super Metroid really set out to defy conventions or break new ground in any way. They never changed any paradigms or reinvented the wheel, they just... did a great job at what they set out to do.
In that sense, Out of This World is a more artistically SIGNIFICANT game, I think. It's not a better game by any stretch of the imagination, but it IS a more artistic, more experimental, potentially more "important" game.
-Tom
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Post by Ryu the Grappler on Dec 4, 2010 23:48:14 GMT -5
Oh come on! Are you seriously telling me that Metroid and Castlevania, two of the most imitated and revered video game franchises in the entire industry are not as "important", "significant", and "artistic" as some overrated Prince of Persia knockoff? Do you even know what "art" means?
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Post by wyrdwad on Dec 5, 2010 0:37:46 GMT -5
Popularity and influence are not the same thing as art.
-Tom
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Post by Ryu the Grappler on Dec 5, 2010 0:52:57 GMT -5
It doesn't justify the fact that you stated that Castlevania and Metroid are "lesser games" than Out of this World. Or the fact that you probably don't even know what "art" means.
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Post by derboo on Dec 5, 2010 1:06:11 GMT -5
Let's stay nice, OK? The thread is here to discuss the article at hand, not to denounce each other's perceived incompetence at evaluating pieces of art.
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Post by Ryu the Grappler on Dec 5, 2010 1:43:46 GMT -5
I'm not insulting anyone here, just challenging perceptions.
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Post by Discoalucard on Dec 5, 2010 1:46:36 GMT -5
Oh come on! Are you seriously telling me that Metroid and Castlevania, two of the most imitated and revered video game franchises in the entire industry are not as "important", "significant", and "artistic" as some overrated Prince of Persia knockoff? Do you even know what "art" means? I will say that Out of This World is a far more important game in developing video games as a storytelling medium. I don't think it's BETTER than the games you've mentioned - it's too clunky for my taste - but from a narrative, atmospheric standpoint, any praise lauded on it is totally worth it. Super Metroid does something similar, at least, though not quite as well.
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Post by wyrdwad on Dec 5, 2010 4:06:05 GMT -5
Yeah, what Kurt said. If you'll note, I never once said Castlevania IV and Super Metroid were lesser games. In fact, quite the opposite:
I'm merely saying that Out of This World is a more artistically and historically significant game. It's nowhere NEAR as good... but if you're going for a "games as art" discussion, no one outside of video gaming will see Super Metroid or Castlevania IV as anything other than video games. They're artfully made, and employ absolutely top-notch game design techniques... but there's virtually nothing about them that a common art critic (with no knowledge of video games) would ever recognize or appreciate.
Out of This World, then, is the other side of the coin. As a game, it's greatly lacking... but show it to an art critic, and he/she will be blown away. It actually works BETTER as art than it does as a game.
-Tom
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Audi
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Post by Audi on Dec 5, 2010 5:30:41 GMT -5
I'm not saying the game is art or not (i don't really care to begin with) i just didn't like how it was written for example seriously it's not enough to say that the beast is scary but "the black shape is a manifestation of the inner view we have of a monster" it just doesn't sounds natural at all,like do you think someone else would describe psycho shower scene with a similiar choice of word? imagine if someone went to talk about silent hill saying that the mist represent our fear of the unknown! While I'm by no means a film scholar or have any deep interest in Hitchcock's works, the shower scene is definetly open to dissection and study of how it uses camera angles, motifs and sound to scare the moviegoers. Again it's sensitive to the time it was released, but it scared people in a whole different way and lifted horror away from the 40's and 50's where most horror movies were cheap rubber suits monsters. Same goes for Another World. Ever gone to a shrink and been shown those black blobs and asked what you see? The beast in Another World is the same, you're given a black animated shape that has little overall detail beyond an aggressive nature which influences your take on said black blob. Silent Hill's mist is a simple weather condition used cleverly to mask technical limitations, it never takes any shape or action. Though those games deal a lot with psychology too, so I wouldn't feel strange if someone argued that the mist can be seen as a way to express the unstable condition of the main character's mental health. i swear this sounds EXACTLY like someone explaining why ico is good to someone who "didn't get it" and it really doesn't help the guy getting it,for the guy who "didn't get it" the game is like "there is a princess,you protect her,you drag her around,sometimes monsters try to kidnap her" but for the other guy the game is about DEEP EMOTIONAL CONNECTION and being the guy who "didn't get it" this is seriously baffling to me because that just doesn't tell me anything about the game at all. Actually it tells you a lot about that particular game. Compassion and responsibility is the main element to the game play and essential to enjoying it. Now if I was gonna explain the game to you I would probably go into detail about the puzzles and controls too, but the main emphasis would be on the interaction between the characters. Some people can't become emotionally attached to fictional characters and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that, but don't pass judgment on people who manages to get greater enjoyment out of a game beyond hijacking cars and running over pedestrians for points. as i said i don't really care if the game is art or not but the whole argument rubs me wrong... personaly i harkens game to movies or better yet anime (just see how many anime inspired videogame there are and vice-versa) so i don't really see why people are so fixated on this concept other than to make videogame sounds more self important I didn't say this game brings all video games up and above and places it on a divine pedestal, I'm saying this game is proof that video games can be works of art by using the players own imagination to form a world through minimalistic means. I don't feel that video gaming in itself is art, it needs proper artistic content to be valued as such, which I personally feel this game has. to my eyes no matter what game,everytime you compare it to art you look to me the same as one of those evangelion kids if you know what i'm talking about I've never seen Evangelion so I can't comment much on what you are trying to say, but knowing anime movies I can only assume that it's one with a strict narrative and philosophies on life and humanity, right? If so, that's a bit of a different ball park and comes more down to its message than the visual presentation. Now again if people manages to watch something and take something from the given message to influence oneself, I don't really see much wrong with that if they can properly apply it to their own lives or mindsets. If they start cosplaying daily and speaking Japanese to their cat, I'd probably agree with you that it was a bit of a negative influence on them socially, but I have yet to dress up in black, look like a square block of tofu while screaming alien nonsense at my cat while climbing trees so I think I'm fine for now. Both your examples are better games in terms of control at least and longer experiences than AW, but Castlevania in general is just a collage of horror movie characters and folklore with a pretty straight forward progression. The characters are all set with either established backgrounds from books or movies which are not created by the designers of the game. Super Metroid comes closer to what AW does by giving you limited look into a vast alien world with very few words heard, but it goes to greater lengths to explain the creatures and environments while AW gives you near nothing yet still leaves you with a strong impression. It's important to remember that AW is also the works of a single individual while the games you mention are by development teams with great budgets and multiple influences from different minds, yet the quality of the games are not so far apart all things considered. I would never argue that they control better than AW however, much more responsive and comfortable controls.
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magus
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Post by magus on Dec 5, 2010 10:18:57 GMT -5
ah but it would bug the shit out of me in the same way that phrase used to simply describe a monster that chase you in a way to make yakety sax appropriate for a scene that take a whole minute at best bugs me out too once again,i'm not condemning the content,i'm condemning the deliver... it's not enough to simply say that you have a single companion that helps you in an alien world but "YOU BUILD TRUST AND FRIENDSHIP WITH HIM,YOU WORRY ABOUT HIM,YOU THINK ABOUT WHAT HE'S DOING" there's so much exageration here the whole message fly completly over my head and all i see is one guy ranting about how much he loves this tofu-shaped bunch of pixel yea maybe the ico comparison was more apt,actualy it's perfect www.1up.com/do/feature?cId=3144548"When she must jump across a chasm, relying on his steady hands to catch her own, your heart skips a beat as you expect the worst to happen." yea i can almost see the puppies jumping out of my screens
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