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Post by kal on May 11, 2011 1:46:15 GMT -5
On horror movies - traditionally the reason women got shafted (figuratively) is due to the forcibly (and self) imposed censorship like the Hayes code etc that forced women to only do certain things and not others. This sort of thing happened right into the 70s for mainstream broadcasts. At some point they just thought that was what they were supposed to be doing :/
It's okay though because often the men are almost exactly as useless in a lot of horror movies. I'd probably say in cinematic terms horror movies are actually a lot more willing to have women take active roles (because they're perceived to be more fragile then men I guess...). Now action movies or crime thrillers...that's a boys club.
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Post by akumajobelmont on May 11, 2011 2:11:20 GMT -5
Bear in mind that applying a stereotype to an individual is incorrect, but stereotypes (or ethnic/lifestyle assumptions) exist for a reason. Not to piss anyone off, but most of the black folks I've known including a current co-worker really DO prefer fried chicken to almost any other food. I've worked in predominantly black environments where it was a day-long conversation on what the best time, fat, and heat application got them the best fried chicken. Almost every Aussie male I've known DID love beer, though not Foster's... more than one making a point that typical American lager was 'mule piss'. How mule piss got to be a common way of describing weak beer down under I'll leave Australians to explain. I have a good friend who is gay. And he along with almost all of the gay male friends I've seen him associate with is the very image of the limp-wristed caricature. Gays flipped out over the way Jack portrayed them on Will & Grace or how Carson was so over-the-top on Queer Eye. BUT almost every man I've met that is out and proud is also pretty goshdamn close to flaming. OF COURSE people are not JUST their stereotype, but so many contain essential elements. These things weren't invented out of nothing. People love to put things in a box... or put a label to them. We do this so we can somehow get a leg up on understanding. We're more comfortable if we think we've got someone or something figured out. That's what 'first impression' is all about. It would be nice if we didn't do this sort of jumping to conclusions before finding the individual who lies behind or outside the stereotype. I'd guess that's what REALLY being sensitive is. Not letting assumptions about a person (whether imagined, media-fed or even gained through experience) cloud how we interact with them. In the case of Japanese games, whatever you think is out on the internet in terms of racially-sensitive information, most Japanese have little to no real-life experience of non-Japanese ethnicities and so have never 'set aside' stereotyping to experience an individual. In some ways they're like martians thinking they're seeing an accurate human experience from reality tv. If Kar-Blagatron, Captain of the Martian Navy greeted you like you were a regular on Jersey Shore you might be pretty fucking offended. But you'd be incorrect to do so. We've gotten too sensitive. Sometimes over nothing. Or over something that with a little correct information the offender could be sorted. I'm especially mystified by people who get literally offended over something that targets a DIFFERENT group from themselves! I agree with some points, but not with the lot. I'm Aussie and I hate beer... didn't even know the term 'Mule-piss' existed. I'm gay, but most definitely not a flamer. People assume I'm straight till told otherwise. I think that there are many reasons why stereotypes exist. But not because they're necessarily true. Well, not really anyways. People like to fit in. So, for example, and from experience with some of the people I've encountered in my travels, many gay people like to fit into the stereotype because it helps solidify that status in their minds. They may not even do it consciously, but it happens. So, say, a newly outed twink hits the clubs for the first time. He could have been as manly as anything before, but once he hits those city lights for the first time, hears the boom'tss-boom'tss music flowing through the streets, it's shocking. This is what he's craved. This is where he wants acceptance. So who better to take pointers from than the apparent vets of the scene? All of a sudden, the wrists get limper; he develops a love of Barbra, Liza and Kylie, and his vocal range is increased by an entire octave. I think people try to fit in any way they can, even if it means subconsciously upholding the status quo and jumping on that bandwagon that just went speeding by. And it's not until an outsider makes an assessment of the situation that real pigeon-holing starts. People associate this with that, then comes media scrutiny of said associations, opinions and such are passed on. Before you know it, boom, stereotype. I know just as many gay people who break the mould as fit in it. Some of my best friends were completely and utterly homophobic before they met me, because all they knew were the stereotypes they had been exposed in some form or another. Same with racial stereotypes. In Australia, the Aboriginal portion of the population is unfairly maligned. Most everyone, including the media, portrays them as drunk slobs who'll do anything for a buck. Sure, some will play up to that stereotype. There's always people in ANY segment of society that will willingly live their perceived 'stereotype' But all the Aboriginals I know are great, great people, and it never even occurs to me that most people out there hold such racial hatred toward them. By the same token, I'm almost never offended by anything. Not by stereotypes; not by language; not by anything. I cop a gay joke, and I laugh it off. I cop an Aussie joke, I shrug that off too. I, too, believe as a society we have become way too sensitive to all this' racist' this, 'terrorist' that, 'friend' this and 'black' that. The only way to combat it is to shrug it off. It's only important and of issue if we make it so. If it doesn't matter to one, soon it won't matter to a few, then eventually further down the track it won't even register with the masses. Over and out. PHEW !!! PS. This thread is awesome. It's nice to see so many different -and seemingly educated- opinions of such a topic  |
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Post by KeeperBvK on May 11, 2011 2:59:30 GMT -5
Haha. Great. ^^ ...well, not for you, that is. |
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Post by vysethebold on May 11, 2011 10:49:46 GMT -5
Nice insight, akumajobelmont. I enjoyed reading your view on things. It's honestly a perspective I've rarely heard outside of a few people. I had two gay roommates in college and they would say a lot of similar things. It's kinda cool to see someone analyze the culture of that kind of social sect from within and kinda from outside. Neat stuff.
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Post by zogbog on May 11, 2011 11:19:33 GMT -5
I’m not entirely sure games have ever had a good grasp on telling stories to ever begin with so stereotypical character types that play off people’s insecurities and social expectations are just another example of lazy character development that games still haven’t gotten a grasp on. But then a lot of people in society have always been sexist and racist and that’s probably never going to go away and trying to force more equality into games isn’t going to help unless you make them genuinely interesting characters outside of their gender, sexual preference or race. Just like asking people to stop being racist dicks when there isn’t any form of punishment isn’t going to work, I mean being racist or sexist online is basically risk free since no one is going to call you out and punch you in the neck.
Games need to learn how to write compelling characters without pandering to stereotypes or double standards (but then society LOVES double standards any way and never bats an eye at them).
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Post by kog3100edw on May 11, 2011 12:04:42 GMT -5
I like a lot of AkumaJoBelmont's points.
But try to bear in mind that when I'm observing the validity of many (not all) aspects of stereotypes this might be based on observation, but it doesn't mean I don't believe there are exceptions or that, in fact, the aspect can be applied broadly. I'm only saying that I can 'see' where many stereotype descriptors come from.
Of course not all Aussies like beer. Of course not all gay men are limp-wristed. I'm not even trying to nuance it with most Aussies like beer or MOST gay men are swishy. I'm saying that by my observation, we can see where MANY of the stereotype traits are derived and try not to be afraid of them or talking about them. If people would be honest, we can all name unhappy stereotype traits that we see manifested. AkumaJo actually described why this trait has come about in young gay males he's observed. I'm sure I've run across gay men that didn't appear swishy either, but then... how would I have known? If they were so butch that my gaydar didn't go off, then I'm unknowingly leaving them off my sample list!
Analagous to the point about aboriginal tribes, some people hold to ideas about blacks being welfare (government aid) addicted and lazy about getting real jobs. I can tell you right now, I supervised a staff of thirty people, twenty-five of them black. The hardest working, highest paid people on my force were BLACK and FEMALE. Some made considerably more than I did, and I was the boss.
I don't think anyone in a persecuted, maligned or misunderstood group needs to OWN a stereotype or aspects of a stereotype. But I don't think we need to be afraid or reactionary about discussing this shit either. The fact that there IS a segment of black society in America that has lost the willingness to work is what feeds the frustration in comics like Bill Cosby or Chris Rock and many MANY black editorials in the news and media. Is it fair to apply the 'lazy' stereotype trait to black folks? No. Is there an origin to that stereotype trait? Yes. Any look at an American urban center will show you a disaffected, cynical section of black culture that doesn't believe the American dream or middle-class has any place for them.
A friend of mine is an BLACK GAY figure skater trying to make a living currently in Europe. Couldn't be MORE opposite the above-mentioned stereotype.
I'm know whatever my observations (and honesty) that no generalities can just be applied globally to a group of people. Please don't confuse my saying a perception is understandable from my saying it is fair or correct.
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Post by retr0gamer on May 11, 2011 12:46:31 GMT -5
How about the times that videogames deal with the theme of prejudice well? I thought that Valkyria Chronicles dealt with the prejudice against the darcsens really well, the way it paralleled with the holocaust and especially how it humanised it in Rose's relationship with Isara, who just happen to be two fantastic strong female characters. To a lesser extent there was the friendship in FFX between Wakka and Rikku helping him get over his prejudice of the Al bhed.
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Post by Deleted on May 11, 2011 13:02:23 GMT -5
VC felt kind of heavy-handed to me, actually. Maybe it was the fact that it was a WWII-esque setting, along with an obvious parallel for Jewish people. Still a great game, though.
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Post by kog3100edw on May 11, 2011 13:07:57 GMT -5
Since Bangai-O is currently on the radar, does anyone remember the Japanese Game Over screen from the first title? I have both JPN and ENG versions (for the DC), and wow, did they make a few changes to that graphic between region versions.
No fair looking up the pics on the internet. Anyone know what 'racist' image Treasure put on there? Did the Nintendo console version have the same pic?
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Post by susanismyalias on May 11, 2011 15:12:42 GMT -5
Ha that screen used to be my sig on this forum.
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Post by munchy on May 11, 2011 15:27:11 GMT -5
It's not really an offensive issue, but I'm kind of mad that American Street Fighter games downplay Zangief's homosexuality or pretend he's not gay. It makes him a way more interesting character! Come on!
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Post by Deleted on May 11, 2011 15:29:39 GMT -5
Zangief's gay? WTF?
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Post by Jave on May 11, 2011 15:31:35 GMT -5
I've never heard that one, but I have to agree, it does make him a way more interesting character.
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Post by munchy on May 11, 2011 15:33:27 GMT -5
That's what I've heard, anyway. Mainly that it's downplayed a lot in the American games. I could be wrong as I'm not terribly canon-adept, so it could just be a rumor.
Also, along the same lines, why do fighting game women always have to look all the goddamn same?
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Post by Ike on May 11, 2011 15:38:05 GMT -5
It's not really an offensive issue, but I'm kind of mad that American Street Fighter games downplay Zangief's homosexuality or pretend he's not gay. It makes him a way more interesting character! Come on! I don't see the connection here and I never have understood this strangely pervasive argument that a character being gay automatically makes them more "interesting." I personally think it's much more interesting when a character's sexuality is irrelevant or secondary (see Nier.) It leaves the character up to interpretation and doesn't objectify them. Why is Zangief more 'interesting' if he's gay? Is it because him being gay justifies his stereotypical gay 'bear' behavior? |
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