First region-locked PS3 disc game (Atlus sucks)

[Nyarly]

With that, you described pretty much every company in existence. Including Valve, which everyone loves to crawl in the ass.

[Ike]

Jul 8, 2012 2:17:15 GMT -5 Sketcz-1000 said:

I'm sorry to unload you Roushimsx, but I spent yesterday reading through NeoGAF and ATLUS' own forum, and the amount of - what I can only describe as WHITE KNIGHTING for a corporation - disturbed me no end. I felt I'd fallen into the twilight zone. So this post is meant really for the other forum posters around the internet, who raised the "fair weather fans" argument.

I'm really unsure why this bothers you so much. Are you sure you understand how international corporations work? You know that if people begin massively importing copies of a game from another region, the company as a whole starts losing a lot of money on unsold domestic copies, right?

I don't know why you think this is setting some kind of precedent. Almost all games outside of most handhelds and PS3 games have been regionlocked for close to 30 years now. If anything this is just a return to form, and it's only one game in a niche genre. It's not like this is something being enforced top-down from Sony.

Jul 7, 2012 21:11:27 GMT -5 roushimsx said:

Good ol' fair weathered fans

I dislike this statement greatly. ATLUS are a company, they exist to make money by producing products that people want to buy. They're not my friend. This isn't a marriage to a spouse who suddenly got sick and I need to stick by her until better times roll by.

This is a company hawking a product. Nobody owes them anything. If they make bad business decisions or try to sell garbage, then no one, absolutely noe one, should feel obligated to give them money just because, you know, they're our special friend who we need to help.

I don't get what you're going on about here. In the first paragraph you acknowledge that they are a company that is out to make money (like every game company, and every company ever that isn't a nonprofit) but then in the second paragraph you claim that they're "hawking" a "garbage" product and that the only reason people are giving them money is to help them? What is your point here? Is it that the product is bad? You haven't played it yet, and the consensus that I've seen from people who have is that the product is pretty good. You seem to just disagree with the way they're selling it because it prevents you from getting the game cheaper than they want to sell it for.

If a company can't sort out its own problems without screwing the consumer over, then the consumer should let them die.

This is hyperbolic and ridiculous. The "problem" isn't with the company. They're not doing this because Atlus is in dire need of quick money, this is a full-fledged game. Your argument seems to waver back and forth between being angry at a company for trying to preserve its market integrity and being upset that they didn't consult you, personally, about your purchasing habits because one of their business decisions might negatively affect your wallet. There is no evidence whatsoever that this sets any kind of precedent; the potential for region-locking was always there, and Sony has been pretty forthright about that. But you're not pissed at them for not completely disabling the lockout mechanism entirely? Sony is the much larger company and does way more things on a daily basis to actively screw the customer over (if I needn't remind you that the PSN was down for over a month last year due to shitty security measures on their part.)

This isn't like some struggling lone bedroom coders who make a really neat game and we're all online on our blogs saying people should buy their DRM free game instead of pirating it - that's an example of supporting someone because they're human beings, and they're doing the right thing.

This has nothing to do with anything. A company's business strategy will vary with its size, for starters, and secondly, this is a hard copy game that people will seek out import copies of because of cheaper market values overseas, not a digitally distributed product that will be sold for the same amount of money in relative currency regardless of where you purchase it. The publisher has to account for marketing campaigns, packaging fees, disc pressing, transport, distribution, unsold copies, returned defective product, lost product, destroyed product, all of which don't apply to "bedroom coders."

ATLUS is a grey behemoth which is actively trying to benefit from globalisation and make a profit by selling a product while basically screwing people over.

How are they screwing you over? You make the argument that we don't owe them anything, but they don't owe you anything either. A business transaction is a trade of money for goods, and as such the company has as much right to set terms of usage and sale as you do. If you don't like the terms, just don't enter into the contract. Both parties have that right.

They do not deserve our sympathy, they do not deserve anyone's defending of them, and they sure as hell do not deserve anyone's money.

You use the word "deserve" and I think that's where you're getting confused, here. It's a business transaction; neither party deserves anything by virtue of that transaction except that it is made within the confines of international and domestic law and in such a way that the transaction is not usurious to either party. This is none of those things.

[Sketcz-1000]

My god, and you dared to call me deliberately obtuse in another thread - yet you fail to understand some very simple things! Furthermore, you sir are condescending and offensive in your outright accusations that I somehow lack the ability to understand my surroundings. I've come to tremendously dislike your entire way of thinking, Ike, but I'm going to bite and address some direct accusations you've made.

Jul 8, 2012 7:32:38 GMT -5 Ike said:

Are you sure you understand how international corporations work? You know that if people begin massively importing copies of a game from another region, the company as a whole starts losing a lot of money on unsold domestic copies, right?

Firstly, they won't lose as much money as you make out. Importing is not as mainstream or as damaging as some like to make out. Secondly, I really don't care. The world is now, with the internet and credit cards, that I can see and touch anything I like - I can also buy anything. Companies like ATLUS should not be allowed to slap my hand away when I want to import something. As a European I've been fucked over enough by corporations doing this, to the point where I will mod my consoles or just pirate stuff. I'm happy to pay money for products, and I like importing, but if you're company that's going to try to fuck with my ability to purchase then you deserve to be fucked right back.

If anything this is just a return to form

What does this even mean? Are you trying to say that because something has always been a particular way we should accept it as normal?

Jesus Fucking Christ Ike! Coming from you, who was grandstanding in the multiple feminism/chauvinism topics on this forum, about how we shouldn't be like this any more, that is deliciously ironic. Humanity has had slavery since the ancient Egyptians, but I don't think anyone is going to openly look at Chinese prison slave labour and say: well, slavery eh? It's just a return to form.

If a bullshit, anti-consumerist practice starts to die and then begins a resurge, what you do NOT do is sit back and say: well, it's always been like this, why rock the boat?

The only reason people are giving them money is to help them? What is your point here?

My point is, I have read several people across three forums say the following, and I am paraphrasing here: "ATLUS are a small company, we should support them anyway, it's a niche game which we would should support, is it really so bad that they're trying to protect themselves, etc etc etc"

And here's what my point is: the people who have said the above are idiots, and no one should support ATLUS just because they're small, or the game is niche, or any other reason. The company deserves to fail for making this decision. I want them to lose money. I want them to fail. It's really easy to understand Ike. If you really, really like the game, fine, buy it, but buy it second hand so they don't get your money, and DO NOT go online and preach to me how you're supporting them for some arbitrary bullshit reason like "they deserve our support" when clearly they deserve to fucking fail.

Is it that the product is bad? You haven't played it yet.

Are you really not getting it? Are you trolling me Ike? This nothing to do with the product. I don't like the Persona series, I don't like fighters, I had no intention to buy or play this. Just in case you're an idiot, let me put it in simple words:

I don't like region locking. All disc based PS3 games do not have region locking. This game has region locking. I do not like the fact that something which previously did not have region locking now has region locking.

Find a dictionary and look up the word precedent.

You seem to just disagree with the way they're selling it because it prevents you from getting the game cheaper than they want to sell it for.

AGH! For a man who can debate so heatedly in other topics, your pretending to be stupid infuriates me. This has nothing to do with price. NOTHING. I live in Europe. You may have heard of the place. A whole bunch of us sailed over to The New World at one point to colonise it.

A lot of games are delayed or not released here at all. Notice how I'm talking about TIME and not PRICE. With the PS3 I can import games when they don't come out here (Aquanaut's Holiday), and I can import when they take a long time (Catherine).

Again, see how none of that has to do with price. It's to do with the freedom to buy and play what I like.

I disagree with anyone restricting my access to stuff and - while I do not care for this particular product - I care for the precedent it sets. Because it does set a precedent. Mark my words!

This is hyperbolic and ridiculous.

You are ridiculous, and an apologist, and a hypocrite. Let's just all go back to the way things were, hmm?

Your argument seems to waver back and forth between being angry at a company for trying to preserve its market integrity

Fuck their integrity if they're maintaining it at the expense of my freedom.

and being upset that they didn't consult you, personally, about your purchasing habits because one of their business decisions might negatively affect your wallet.

I've addressed this already, but it has nothing to do with my wallet. I have the disposable income to buy from any country in the world. What I do not like is being denied the ability to use what I have paid for. What I'm upset about is the fact that there are future purchases I intend to make from the USA and Japan, and I am worried that other publishers will now region lock their games.

You cannot stand there typing with any certainty that other companies will not follow suit.

There is no evidence whatsoever that this sets any kind of precedent; the potential for region-locking was always there, and Sony has been pretty forthright about that.

If it's the first incident of something to happen, then it's a precedent. None have done it yet, but after one does, others will follow. You have no evidence to say others won't follow.

Sony is the much larger company and does way more things on a daily basis to actively screw the customer over (if I needn't remind you that the PSN was down for over a month last year due to shitty security measures on their part.)

If we're playing tit for tat with corporate politics, what about the XBLA hacking scandal, where thanks to some utter bullshit loopholes people have been able to hack and sell accounts, and entire forums have sprung up for people dealing and trading in other people's accounts?

Sony saw the problem, admitted it, shut the system down to stop the Titanic sinking, and then plugged the holes.

Microsoft denied anything was wrong, and not until websites and blogs of people complained did they slowly addressing the problem - funny thing is it's still a major problem if you follow forums. People are still getting hacked, not because of phishing, but because of the way service hotline people deal with lost passwords. I've not heard of anyone suffering with loss of PSN funds.

I have yet to be screwed over by Sony Computer Entertainment with the PS3. It's region free, it functions, all my PSN accounts are fine, and they even gave me free games, for each of my accounts, when they went down. So I lost multiplayer for a month, so what? They've behaved as good as I could possibly hope from a corporation.

Why even bring this up other than to distract me from the argument at hand?

The publisher has to account for marketing campaigns, packaging fees, disc pressing, transport, distribution, unsold copies, returned defective product, lost product, destroyed product.

I don't give a shit, Ike! All I want is to be able to buy what I want from where I want, and have it run.

How are they screwing you over? You make the argument that we don't owe them anything, but they don't owe you anything either.

It's nothing to do with what they owe me, it's the ripples they are causing by upsetting what was a really nice fucking situation - REGION FREE GAMING. That is screwing me over. Right now I am benefiting from region free gaming. If it all goes tits up in a ditch then that will have been ATLUS' doing.

You use the word "deserve" and I think that's where you're getting confused, here.

No, you are confused. My whole point was in relation to other people who have made comments that ATLUS deserve to be supported. Go through the NeoGAF thread, the Bordersdown thread, the ATLUS forum thread, and read the comments people are making.

They say ATLUS deserves to be given a break, and the hostility is unwarranted, my retort is that ATLUS deserves nothing but our scorn.


I took the time to read and multi-quote your post, but don't bother doing the same again, because if you're not being deliberately obtuse to anger me, then you can't be reasoned with, and I won't bother reading your reply.

It's a pity you can't block other people's posts from coming up, because your presence is insufferable, Ike.

Didn't you say you were bored of gaming and getting out of it?

[Super Orbus]

Wow. I have no words.

It's just a game. Please calm down.

[Deleted]

Honestly, what people say on Neofriend means jack and shit because they're all trying to suck up and/or not get banned. I fail to see what they're saying as surprising or infuriating.

I mean, this situation sucks dick if it continues, but for right now there's no need to fly off the handle about it.

[Deleted]

I still don't see the issue here. You live in America, you buy the American version. You live in Japan, you buy the Japanese version. The only time it matters is when a game isn't released in all territories.

I usually get behind whatever the latest thing the internet is pissed off about, but this seems like absolutely nothing to be upset over.

[Deleted]

Jul 8, 2012 9:52:23 GMT -5 @jasonx said:

I still don't see the issue here. You live in America, you buy the American version. You live in Japan, you buy the Japanese version. The only time it matters is when a game isn't released in all territories.

I usually get behind whatever the latest thing the internet is pissed off about, but this seems like absolutely nothing to be upset over.

Can't speak for others, but it's been really nice to buy stuff from the UK that isn't getting released on disk here (actually playing Warriors Orochi 3 at the moment, ironically). If they shut down the pussy train though, I'll deal with it.

But yeah, we are at an impasse here. No sense in arguing about this any more.

[Warchief Onyx]

This thread's gone full retard I see.

[vysethebold]

Seriously, if you don't like something that someone said, you aren't obligated to tell them you disagree.