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Post by dsparil on Sept 6, 2019 12:17:58 GMT -5
Of course there aren't any hard rules. I mainly meant that there's a much lower barrier to entry in both popularity and character potential for Assist Trophies. The Nintendo Badge Arcade rabbit is an AT but that's not a character that's ever going to be a fighter. VF1 Akira is an AT but having Akira as a full character is a little more iffy since Virtua Fighter is fairly grounded in reality as far as fighting game franchises go. What would the Up-B even be? That's the same problem that Lara has. Tomb Raider does have some fantastical elements, but its still primarily about acrobatics and shooting. I could see the Dagger of Xian as a potential Final Smash but I struggle to come up with anything else.
There's also the 3DS version of MGS3 for Snake. Cloud lacked a main game on a Nintendo platform, but there still were appearances in Kingdom Hearts: Chain of Memories and Theaterhythm. Slight connection but existing, and there was a huge amount of demand for Cloud.
I do agree with Cloud and Joker being chosen mainly for popularity than connection. I will always push back on Persona = SMT as that's an invention of Atlus's US marketing shoving every MegaTen game under SMT for some reason. Jack Frost or the whole trio from Jack Bros. would have been more connective. I think Cecil or Terra would have been the obvious FF choices for Nintendo connection.
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Post by lurker on Sept 6, 2019 12:28:47 GMT -5
That said, I wish people would stop requesting anime characters, like Goku, or characters that have absolutely no connection to Nintendo, like Master Chief, for Smash.
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Post by toei on Sept 6, 2019 12:30:16 GMT -5
🧀Son of Suzy Creamcheese🧀 It'd be perfectly possible. It all depends on how you nerf them. Speed, power, limiting the number of uses with temporary cool-down periods, etc. There's a lot of methods you can use to make guns usable in a fighting game context. You can even go lazy and reserve it for special moves or whatever.
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Post by windfisch on Sept 6, 2019 12:41:27 GMT -5
It was back then, but it has since been reappraised as being worse than the original MGS. That is pretty much debatable.
The original is still great and due to more people being familiar with it has that big nostalgia-bonus going for it (PSOne had a far bigger user-base than the GC). But TTS adds many quality-of-life improvements and a somewhat different flavour to the experience (love the over-the top cutscenes). Not all of these additions and changes may be for the better, but overall it's a great version, too.
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Post by dsparil on Sept 6, 2019 12:59:44 GMT -5
lurker That's why I wish 3rd party characters never got added. toei There's plenty of gun using SSB characters. Lara as a character would basically just have different guns as special attacks which is boring. Snake already takes up most of the space for a "normal" character and has the advantage of heavier weapons and high-tech gadgets. She's just be a less interesting version.
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Post by lurker on Sept 6, 2019 13:05:09 GMT -5
lurker That's why I wish 3rd party characters never got added. toei There's plenty of gun using SSB characters. Lara as a character would basically just have different guns as special attacks which is boring. Snake already takes up most of the space for a "normal" character and has the advantage of heavier weapons and high-tech gadgets. She's just be a less interesting version. I mean as long as there's a connection, I don't mind. Some third party stuff is still rather close to Nintendo.
Plus, you also have the Mii Gunner...
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Post by 🧀Son of Suzy Creamcheese🧀 on Sept 6, 2019 13:19:27 GMT -5
All projectile-heavy characters still mostly use melee attacks in the game, and even those have some problems with the balancing where camping can be a good strategy or where slower characters like Incineroar have a problem against them. And a lot of them have a lot of shorter-range or slower projectiles as well. Nothing that's really similar to Lara's guns. So they'd still have to come up with mostly melee attacks for her. Not that I'm saying that's impossible, but a character that mainly uses guns would just not work in the game. That is pretty much debatable.
The original is still great and due to more people being familiar with it has that big nostalgia-bonus going for it (PSOne had a far bigger user-base than the GC). But TTS adds many quality-of-life improvements and a somewhat different flavour to the experience (love the over-the top cutscenes). Not all of these additions and changes may be for the better, but overall it's a great version, too.
I haven't played them, mind you. But from what I've heard, they add some things to the game while not really tweaking the levels to account for those things. So, the main complaint seems to be gameplay-related, which seems to push it over the edge for people as the worse version. Either way, the original has never seen a release on a Nintendo platform, unless I'm mistaken. And neither have 2, 4, and 5 and the vast majority of spinoffs. I'm not saying Snake doesn't deserve to be in Smash, but he has little to nothing to do with Nintendo.
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Post by windfisch on Sept 6, 2019 14:04:09 GMT -5
That is pretty much debatable.
The original is still great and due to more people being familiar with it has that big nostalgia-bonus going for it (PSOne had a far bigger user-base than the GC). But TTS adds many quality-of-life improvements and a somewhat different flavour to the experience (love the over-the top cutscenes). Not all of these additions and changes may be for the better, but overall it's a great version, too.
I haven't played them, mind you. But from what I've heard, they add some things to the game while not really tweaking the levels to account for those things. So, the main complaint seems to be gameplay-related, which seems to push it over the edge for people as the worse version. Either way, the original has never seen a release on a Nintendo platform, unless I'm mistaken. And neither have 2, 4, and 5 and the vast majority of spinoffs. I'm not saying Snake doesn't deserve to be in Smash, but he has little to nothing to do with Nintendo. The most common complaint is probobly that some bosses are way easier using first person-mode. On the plus side, it's not necessary to use it and to me it finally makes the no-radar mode a viable option (not so much in the original).
It's true that most of the "Solid" games haven't appeared on Nintendo systems and Snake is probably not as often associated with Nintendo as Simon Belmont or Mega Man.
But I think the NES games used to be rather popular in their days and TTS, similar to Remakident Evil, was a big-budget, high profile (re-)introduction of the series to a Nintendo system. It was even made in collaboration with Nintendo, featuring little nods like a Yoshi statue and Mantis being able to identify save states for games such as Super Mario Sunshine, Wind Waker aaaand *drumroll* Smash Brothers Melee.
That's enough Nintendo connection for me.
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Post by dsparil on Sept 6, 2019 14:27:20 GMT -5
Secondary problem with Twin Snakes is that Kojima wanted the translation redone to be more literal which also required a new dub. Both are unsurprisingly worse.
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Post by windfisch on Sept 6, 2019 15:49:10 GMT -5
We've had that Twin Snakes debate in this thread before, so it's certainly "divisive". And even I think it has some issues. But the PSO game is hardly perfect either, its flaws just tend to get overlooked more easily probably due to it being the original and running on less powerful hardware.
Back to Smash: As a fun thought experiment I was thinking about less likely characters and how those could be implemented anyway. Metal Gear Solid for example is a pretty violent game, but Snake doesn't loose much of his identity in Smash, even though he's toned down a bit.
So what about gore-heavy franchises like Resident Evil and Mortal Kombat?
RE has a precendent in Jill Valentine's Marvel v Capcom appearance (she's also an example of a gun-heavy character reworked for a fighting game). So that would work pretty well, too.
Mortal Kombat however, is were things get a bit more complicated. The whole series pretty much associated with blood, gore and fatalities. But you can't really have those in a Smash game. The most iconic MK character is undoubtedly Scorpion, followed by Sub Zero. Scorpion's signature spear move may or may not be a bit too much for Smash standards, even without the blood (not sure if people actually get visibly stabbed in them). But Sub Zero, at least the 16 Bit era version, would work pretty well, with his freezing and sliding abilities. Maybe his SNES-version fatality (if handled in a slightly cartoonish manner) might work, too. Scorpion could also spit flames at opponents, but without actually burning their flesh, of course. There's also Friendships, Babalities and (toned down) Animalities (as special moves and/or Final Smashes) that would fit well with Smash I think. The more I think about it, this might actually work!
So who could be next? Doomguy? Hmmm, he needs the chainsaw, obviously. But as long as it doesn't actually rip and tear, it *might* still be okay.
Duke Nukem? Phew.
Silent Hill - hmmmmmm
Leisure Suit Larry? Probably not...
Any other ideas?
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Post by 🧀Son of Suzy Creamcheese🧀 on Sept 6, 2019 16:32:04 GMT -5
Bayonetta had to be toned down a little too, to avoid rating issues.
Doomguy's chainsaw wouldn't really be a problem I think. Corrin uses a chainsaw too, sort of. And with DOOM '16 using more sci-fi-y weapon designs, things like the shotgun probably wouldn't really be a problem either. Or maybe that wouldn't be a problem anyway?
I think Resident Evil wouldn't have to be toned down too much. I've only played REmake, but I didn't find it very reliant on gore. Just have the spirits be the least gory monsters and some supporting characters, and that's really all you need to worry about.
Mortal Kombat is so reliant on gore and so graphic in its latest installment that it would never even be considered even if it was associated with Nintendo systems and even if it was possible to tone it down. Even if you'd tone it down, it wouldn't really be right, would it?
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Post by lurker on Sept 6, 2019 16:34:53 GMT -5
Umm... Mortal Kombat vs DC Universe, anyone?
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Post by windfisch on Sept 6, 2019 17:19:02 GMT -5
MK vs DC came to mind and it's a good point of reference. But some of the stuff in there still might be a bit too much for Smash:
I think it would have to be the 16 bit era MKs (similar to how Ryu and Ken resemble their 16 bit designs), rather than the recent ones. And the characters would have to be presented in a charming, self-aware manner, so even MK fans would be willing to accept it. Smash games seem to excel this, like with the wonderfully tongue-in-cheek Terry-trailer.
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Post by lurker on Sept 6, 2019 18:54:50 GMT -5
If Monster Hunter is getting a fighter rep I'm hoping it'll be one of the palicos.
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Post by kaoru on Sept 7, 2019 7:17:13 GMT -5
Speeking of which. Iceborne is out, beeches. Anyone else having the fun of their life yet?
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