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Post by ZenithianHero on Oct 21, 2019 14:35:12 GMT -5
On to a different topic. I think I mentioned already I got a Xbox recently. I looked over a bunch of used Xbox games over at a used game store and seen some games i'm not familiar with but look interesting. I looked at Gamefaqs for reviews (only looked at critic ones,) and their opinions are varied. Like to know if their worth getting. THey are.. Advent Rising Curse The Eye of Isis Malice The Matrix Path of Neo (I know about this one but unsure if it's worth playing) Pariah Vexx Whacked Marc Eckō's Getting Up: Contents Under Pressure I have Malice on PS2. It's aggressively average. I remember Argonaut had to redo the whole project moving from PS1 to XBOX/PS2, so it was a miracle it actually got released. Aside from that I would look out for Panzer Dragoon Orta, Jet Set Radio Future, and Breakdown. If anybody hunts them down, go for the JSRF/Sega GT bundle. In US the package had box art on opposing sides so if you see a copy of Sega GT 2002 check the back cover if it has JSRF included. Breakdown is awesome, probably my favorite of the "cult" XBOX games. I'll throw in these recommendations for cult titles Mad Dash Racing Otogi Raze's Hell Voodoo Vince
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Post by mainpatr on Oct 21, 2019 15:03:12 GMT -5
I have Advent Rising. It's an okay third-person Halo clone with a cliffhanger ending and a boss fight making fun of former president Barack Obama. Too bad Advent Shadow,the PSP spin-off never got released.
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Post by Apollo Chungus on Oct 21, 2019 15:31:41 GMT -5
By the by, what's with some people's dislike for the Metroidvania term? Maybe Metroid-like would be more appropriate in some cases, but I think it serves it purpose pretty well. If there's term that gets used a lot and needs revising it's roguelike. It used to refer to games like Rogue, but now it just refers to anything that has randomly generated levels that have some form of permadeath. But the term roguelite is already available for that. Since I'm the guy that brought this conversation back up by using the term 'Mapformers', I'll explain why it bugs me personally.
There are worse names to use when trying to describe this subgenre (which is probably why 'Metroidvania' became so damn prevalent as a shorthand for games with a focus on exploring worlds and using new knowledge/abilities to reach previously inaccessible areas), but my issue is that because the subgenre is named after two games - Metroid and Castlevania* - there's the implication that those two games are the genre standard and what everyone should aspire to. That doesn't seem like a bad thing, but I've often found it ends up being quite restrictive from a few different perspectives.
*I'd still be somewhat annoyed if they were called Metroid-likes, since I just dislike genres being named after games.
From a fandom point of view, you get people dismissing otherwise enjoyable examples of the subgenre because they deviate from what the "classics" do (e.g. Tails Adventures on the Game Gear isn't seen as a Metroidvania by some simply because it doesn't have interconnected levels like the genre namesakes, even though it does have you revisiting stages with new weapons and items you've found elsewhere to progress). This also applies to a lesser extent to games that aren't platformers, but very clearly have the same ideas in mind - the early Resident Evils, the first Dark Souls.
From a developer's point of view, there's the pressure (even if indirectly) to live up to "the classics" so that people don't dismiss them for doing things differently, either by emulating them or straight up imitating them. This unfortunately ends up in a game that "ticks the boxes" but is otherwise completely uninspired because the creators got too caught up in trying to fit in with the crowd (Shadow Complex famously aped Super Metroid, but suffered from mediocre presentation). Not every game has to revolutionize its genre, no, but when there's dozens of these games coming out every other week or so, it's frustrating when most of them seem to be very slight variations on the same pair of games from 20+ years ago.
(Maybe not as importantly, but it really bothers me from a historical perspective because the name suggests that the subgenre only really began with its namesakes, even though there are countless examples of games doing what Metroid and the later Castlevanias are renowned for several years beforehand.)
I tend to prefer gaming genre definitions that are as broad as possible, since it allows people to make whatever game they like in that genre without feeling restricted by what they think or have been told it should be. And if games are different from what the genre standard is expected to do, that's absolutely not a bad thing. Etrian Odyssey gives you a lot more combat options, puts more emphasis on exploration, and is generally more difficult from the start than most JRPGs, but that's why I love that series to bits. Dead or Alive isn't as complex in terms of button inputs as your standard fighting game, but that's what allows me to get into it and enjoy the environmental interaction and excellent animation. Sonic plays very differently from Mario, and I frankly wouldn't have it be any other way.
If you disagree with me and think Metroidvania's a good name as any, that's fair enough. I just prefer to call it something else. (An alternate name I had was "Backtrackers", since that's what you end up doing in most of these games - also, it could help reduce the stigma against backtracking. Is that better or worse than Mapformers?)
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Post by ZenithianHero on Oct 21, 2019 16:10:09 GMT -5
I'll just stick to Platform Adventure. It is broad enough to indicate that the games have more storytelling, exploration or character management that traditional platformers avoid.
Since we are on the subject of genres named after games, what genre is Monster Hunter, God Eater, Toukiden etc? I seen enough remarks from people who don't consider them action-RPGs and the format of "boss missions and looting" is more specific than action-adventure.
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Post by kaoru on Oct 21, 2019 16:23:04 GMT -5
Honestly, it took me many years to realize people use Metroidvania as a genre term, for a long time I thought it just refers to the Castlevanias with the Super Metroid map progression.
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Post by dsparil on Oct 21, 2019 17:15:00 GMT -5
I'll just stick to Platform Adventure. It is broad enough to indicate that the games have more storytelling, exploration or character management that traditional platformers avoid. Since we are on the subject of genres named after games, what genre is Monster Hunter, God Eater, Toukiden etc? I seen enough remarks from people who don't consider them action-RPGs and the format of "boss missions and looting" is more specific than action-adventure. Monster hunting 😜
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Post by windfisch on Oct 21, 2019 17:32:02 GMT -5
By the by, what's with some people's dislike for the Metroidvania term? Maybe Metroid-like would be more appropriate in some cases, but I think it serves it purpose pretty well. If there's term that gets used a lot and needs revising it's roguelike. It used to refer to games like Rogue, but now it just refers to anything that has randomly generated levels that have some form of permadeath. But the term roguelite is already available for that. Since I'm the guy that brought this conversation back up by using the term 'Mapformers', I'll explain why it bugs me personally.
There are worse names to use when trying to describe this subgenre (which is probably why 'Metroidvania' became so damn prevalent as a shorthand for games with a focus on exploring worlds and using new knowledge/abilities to reach previously inaccessible areas), but my issue is that because the subgenre is named after two games - Metroid and Castlevania* - there's the implication that those two games are the genre standard and what everyone should aspire to. That doesn't seem like a bad thing, but I've often found it ends up being quite restrictive from a few different perspectives.
*I'd still be somewhat annoyed if they were called Metroid-likes, since I just dislike genres being named after games.
From a fandom point of view, you get people dismissing otherwise enjoyable examples of the subgenre because they deviate from what the "classics" do (e.g. Tails Adventures on the Game Gear isn't seen as a Metroidvania by some simply because it doesn't have interconnected levels like the genre namesakes, even though it does have you revisiting stages with new weapons and items you've found elsewhere to progress). This also applies to a lesser extent to games that aren't platformers, but very clearly have the same ideas in mind - the early Resident Evils, the first Dark Souls.
From a developer's point of view, there's the pressure (even if indirectly) to live up to "the classics" so that people don't dismiss them for doing things differently, either by emulating them or straight up imitating them. This unfortunately ends up in a game that "ticks the boxes" but is otherwise completely uninspired because the creators got too caught up in trying to fit in with the crowd (Shadow Complex famously aped Super Metroid, but suffered from mediocre presentation). Not every game has to revolutionize its genre, no, but when there's dozens of these games coming out every other week or so, it's frustrating when most of them seem to be very slight variations on the same pair of games from 20+ years ago.
(Maybe not as importantly, but it really bothers me from a historical perspective because the name suggests that the subgenre only really began with its namesakes, even though there are countless examples of games doing what Metroid and the later Castlevanias are renowned for several years beforehand.)
I tend to prefer gaming genre definitions that are as broad as possible, since it allows people to make whatever game they like in that genre without feeling restricted by what they think or have been told it should be. And if games are different from what the genre standard is expected to do, that's absolutely not a bad thing. Etrian Odyssey gives you a lot more combat options, puts more emphasis on exploration, and is generally more difficult from the start than most JRPGs, but that's why I love that series to bits. Dead or Alive isn't as complex in terms of button inputs as your standard fighting game, but that's what allows me to get into it and enjoy the environmental interaction and excellent animation. Sonic plays very differently from Mario, and I frankly wouldn't have it be any other way.
If you disagree with me and think Metroidvania's a good name as any, that's fair enough. I just prefer to call it something else. (An alternate name I had was "Backtrackers", since that's what you end up doing in most of these games - also, it could help reduce the stigma against backtracking. Is that better or worse than Mapformers?)
One has to question though: Is it the term itself that's responsible for the many samey games in the genre (and there could be indeed some kind of framing effect going on, limiting people's imagination) or is it rather the popularity/status of the original games (that brought us the term in the first place)? The latter seems to be the much bigger deciding factor, imo. And luckily exploration-based platformers that do their own thing like the aforementioned Knytt UG, La Mulana or Dead Cells still got made, despite the existence of the term.
That said, I actually do welcome attempts at being inventive with genre names. Keep 'em coming!
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Post by kaoru on Oct 21, 2019 17:48:39 GMT -5
I'll just stick to Platform Adventure. It is broad enough to indicate that the games have more storytelling, exploration or character management that traditional platformers avoid. Since we are on the subject of genres named after games, what genre is Monster Hunter, God Eater, Toukiden etc? I seen enough remarks from people who don't consider them action-RPGs and the format of "boss missions and looting" is more specific than action-adventure. Monster hunting 😜 Pretty much, they might get refered to hunting or monster hunting games. Though Monster Hunter likes/clones is pretty ubiquitously used too, similar to how Dark Souls like is often used for that specific niche of a genre.
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Post by ZenithianHero on Oct 21, 2019 18:12:16 GMT -5
"Monster Hunting" doesn't give the impression of a genre. Monster Hunter is just that influential. Hunting-Action, now that could work.
I don't like Roguelike as a genre name. I just call them dungeon crawlers. Doesn't matter if it is Etrian Odyssey or Shiren the Wanderer. Many games seem to be dungeon-cralwer but apply ideas from a mix of genres. Enter the Gungeon for example. I guess there has to be some further describing involved.
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Post by kaoru on Oct 22, 2019 1:18:41 GMT -5
I never said it's a good genre name, but usually what is used. As said it is like Dark Souls or Metroidvania, the one game/franchise is such a watermark that people often simply use it as is and everyone knows what they are talking about. Monster Hunter is especially hard to pin down anyways. It already begins with the problem that about as many people consider it an RPG as would never categorize it as such.
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Post by 🧀Son of Suzy Creamcheese🧀 on Oct 22, 2019 4:53:14 GMT -5
Apollo ChungusI can't say I share your view, but thanks for answering. I do agree that Tails Adventures is a metroidvania. The level select is more or less the same as having warp spots, with the major difference being you can't 'backtrack' when you enter a level.
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Post by Apollo Chungus on Oct 22, 2019 7:08:54 GMT -5
One has to question though: Is it the term itself that's responsible for the many samey games in the genre (and there could be indeed some kind of framing effect going on, limiting people's imagination) or is it rather the popularity/status of the original games (that brought us the term in the first place)? The latter seems to be the much bigger deciding factor, imo. And luckily exploration-based platformers that do their own thing like the aforementioned Knytt UG, La Mulana or Dead Cells still got made, despite the existence of the term. I think it's both the enduring popularity of the enduring games and the fact that the genre is named after them, since the games are what inspired the genre name and the genre name is what keeps those games in the forefront of people's minds whenever it comes up. After a point, it's a self-sustaining chicken-and-egg thing. I'm gonna move on to a different topic, since I've talked plenty about the terminology as it is over the last couple of days, so I'd like to talk about a game I started playing for the first time: Tomba! for the PS1. I'd always heard pretty good things about this one, and after reading about it on Racketboy's Hidden Gems article, I thought I'd give it a bash and see how it turned out. I'm not too far into it, but I rather like what it's going for. It's a 2D action platformer with a focus on completing sidequests and finding equipment/abilities to get to new areas (yes, I'm aware of the irony that after saying I didn't want to play another Backtracker/Mapformer/METROIDS-IN-DISGUISE immediately after Aria of Sorrow, I ended up playing one anyway), and I rather like how doing quests gives you Action Points that allow you to get certain items or new powers, which lets you further explore the world and find more quests to do, and so on and so forth. It's also got a pretty charming aesthetic with adorable pre-rendered 2D characters and 3D environments, and some of the music tracks I've heard so far are quite good - the opening theme "Paradise" by Tokyo Channel Q is fantastic! The controls take a bit of time to get used to (though getting the Jumping Pants really helps out with that), and I wish there was a way to move the camera above or below you when handling certain sections, but I'm otherwise enjoying myself so far. Hopefully, I'll get a good bit into it and end up really enjoying it.
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Post by windfisch on Oct 22, 2019 12:26:49 GMT -5
Tomba! was one of many games I enjoyed, but for some reason never finished. Guess there were some stumbling blocks along the way, I got distracted by other stuff and the more time passed, the more I had the feeling of having to start all over. Will try again...some day *sigh* For the most part 2D and 2,5D PS1 games have aged far more gracefully* than 3D games for the system. Which reminds me of Klonoa - a game I enjoyed even more, but for some reason...
*(with the exception of Blood Omen: Legacy of Kain)
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Post by retr0gamer on Oct 23, 2019 2:51:34 GMT -5
Playing Earth Defense Force 5 and on the final set of missions and they are just insane. I'm playing an air raider which can be a little frustrating when you are against enemies with shields as my best form of direct attack is to call in air strikes. Stuck on the second last mission as it's a multi stage fight with a giant mothership with lots of massive turret sections flying around it. I think I'll just have to play it cautiously and take out each section piece by piece as I'm just getting totally overwhelmed.
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Post by ommadawnyawn2 on Oct 23, 2019 15:58:07 GMT -5
Is there any chance that we'll see remakes of MML1-2 or Tron Bonne any time soon?
I'm liking them so far (MML1 & Tron Bonne played) but they also feel a bit dated and unrealized in some ways.
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