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Post by retr0gamer on Mar 3, 2015 17:17:00 GMT -5
It's really not that hard to understand and the execution of these basic moves is very easy. I mean a cross up is just a well placed jump kick while a wake up is just a special move performed when you are in a knock down state, and the timing isn't all that strict if you 'plink'. I think David Sirlin explains it really well in the videos and they helped me become a much bett... well a mediocre player but still that's my own fault for not having the time to practice.
However you say you have no competitive partners to play against, unfortunately you are not going to learn any of this from any training mode or AI. Stuff like wake ups, cross ups and spacing aren't hard to do or learn, the problem is they are only effective mind game tools against your opponent and mind games don't work against a cheating cheesy AI.
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Post by Aoi on Mar 3, 2015 18:08:11 GMT -5
It's important to remember that these games take a lot of practice and dedication too. It really doesn't matter if you have a sensei buddy to teach you in real time, you're still gonna take many hours learning each lessons. Sure, a friend who's able to tell you what you're doing wrong and right goes a long way, it's still gonna be a commitment. By commitment, I'm talking hundreds of hours... These techniques are 90% experience. If I'm playing a Bison, and he's able to block after all his scissor kicks, by experience I now know his frames are safe. I didn't look up Bison's recovery frames online, or watch a tutorial on him, or any of that non-sense, I simply played the game.
Unfortunately, in order to learn these you must go online and lose, and lose a lot. I believe that really scares new players away. Losing should be the first lesson. Players nowadays aren't used to losing so often. Most online games partake in team play, where you're likely carried as a new player and get those feely good feels from a win. You don't need a sparring buddy or teacher, you really just need to go online and lose for a week or two, and learn from your mistakes there. In reality, that's how most of us actually learned the game. That may sound quite unfun and unfulfilling, but the moment you win a match, after losing so hard, feels so amazing. It's the realization of all your hard work. Numerous times I've encountered pro players online, and lost to them as many times as I could. I'll lose 50-100 games in a row if necessary (and often do against them). In fact, I may never win one. But, after a night of losing to a better player, the players on my level seemed incredibly easier. I actually ranked up my experience by simply losing to better players.
So, perhaps instead of looking for an easy game to pickup or easy tutorials to be given, throw away a bit of pride and learn to lose. Reflect on why you lost, get up, and try again. *insert Rocky quote or somethin here*
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Post by Allie on Mar 3, 2015 18:14:51 GMT -5
The problem is that I'm so terrible that even a low-to-moderate player can basically perfect me about 8 out of 10 times.
So I don't really get the chance to "learn" anything than "u sux git gud n00b".
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Post by Aoi on Mar 4, 2015 0:15:55 GMT -5
Hope I don't come off as too callus and "git gud noob"-ish. Often times I just see a lot of new players really struggle, and they often come up with excuses like "oh, I need a stick to be good" or "they're good because they have no life" or "this game needs easier inputs". I usually just kind of point out that in their gaming life, they've likely never touched a fighting game. It's kind of like a wake up call; you're not gonna pick it up easily like most games.
With that said though, I kind of giggled at what you said about even noobs beating you. New players are absolutely hard to play against! I can beat early beginner players, perhaps like yourself, 10 outta 10 times. It's very easy to see their game, or their plan, and just flat out shut it down. Noobs, on the otherhand, don't have a plan... their random nature actually nets them quite a bit of damage. Once I discover I'm playing somebody at that level I just gotta turn everything off and sit there doing nothing, or go fullscreen and just zone them to death so I don't have to deal with them.
It's difficult learning a game playing against a noob =\. At that point, I'd argue the AI is better to learn against, and that says something. When I actually sat and committed to learning SF, it was noob paradise with SFIV's release. I just picked a "cheap" character (to them) like Vega or Bison and spammed wall dives or headstomps. If I ran into a better player or somebody on my level, I'd pull out the mains I actually wanted to learn. Ironically, in my time of playing Bison/Vegas I still learned quite a bit too. ========
So... yeah... any particular fighting games people are wanting to get better at? All this general talk only goes so far, it's easier to be specific about some things.
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Post by Bobinator on Mar 4, 2015 13:26:37 GMT -5
You don't happen to play a lot of Skullgirls, do you? That's my favorite PC fighter of recent times so far, so I'd be willing to take any advice you could give on that.
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Post by retr0gamer on Mar 4, 2015 14:15:53 GMT -5
I'd love to get better at KoFXIII but the execution you need to pull off combos in that game is pretty insane, considering I struggle at a basic FADC in SF4. I can't even get through the basic tutorial, the final big combo is expects you to pull off where you finish with a neo max (I think) is just way beyond my abilities. Really love the game though and it's probably the best spectator fighting game when it comes to tournaments.
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Post by susanismyalias on Mar 4, 2015 14:35:26 GMT -5
KOF XIII is amazingly good, played a ton of it a couple summers with some buds while drinking.
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Post by Aoi on Mar 4, 2015 17:56:19 GMT -5
You don't happen to play a lot of Skullgirls, do you? That's my favorite PC fighter of recent times so far, so I'd be willing to take any advice you could give on that. I haven't played it extensively, considering I picked it up a little later than most. It is like Marvel though, in the sense that you have major skill plateaus to reach for progress. Starting out: -Master the tutorials: They're too good not to. Also, when you must perform something several times in tutorial, attempt to make your attempts flawless (like blocking 10 times without getting hit once). -Choose a character and master their tutorials: SG is nice enough to pretty much give you everybody's moves and an easy bread and butter combo for tutorial. -Play Story Mode with your character: get a feel for the engine, and don't get discouraged by the final boss. -If possible, play 1v1 character matches against a friend. Above that: -Learn to move: whether it be dashing, running, super jumping, or air dashing(use the P+P method, not F,F), you must be comfortable with any of these at any point in time. -Find a good entrance: Every character has a really good move or two to begin combos with. Most have a jump in attack which is really good, and you wanna find those for your character(s). -Hit confirm: The tutorials teach this and it's important. Most characters have a multihit button which is fairly safe. You want to get in and use those types of moves (or light attacks) to visually confirm if they're blocking or not. Never go into a harder attack/launcher/special move without visually confirming that it'll hit. If they block one of those, it's a free combo for them--same applies for you, be on the look out to block those. -Mixups: Once you get hit confirming down, you must learn the second half. If they are blocking, you want to mixup with an overhead or throw. Again, tutorial attempts to teach you this. -Learn 3 characters: The game may seem to balance out team strengths by how many characters you pick, but you really need 3. This is due to assists being so valuable. -Learn to use assists: Like Marvel, you must use assists to really be competitive. Try starting out with a fireball assist to just throw out now and then, or a reversal uppercut type one to stop jump-in's, keep it simple for now. -Wrap your head around the combo system: SG has a bit of a complicated combo system to stop infinites. Generally though, you need a ground chain->air chain->special->super, starting out. -Don't be afraid to zone: Yeah, it's a fancy combo game, but sitting back and throwing fireballs is still very good. Peacock is an amazing character to use at this level, especially if she has an assist to cover her for when they get too close (like Big Band). High level: -Maximize combos: In length and scaling. -Learn Resets: It tends to take 2-3 combos to kill a character. If you learn a reset, you have a very high chance of making 1 combo into 2, and getting a kill. These are character specific and pretty advance to cover in this. -Capitalize off an assist: You need to get in and do your combos, and at higher levels you're only going to really get hits based off your assist, so you need to be able to combo off one hitting or setting you up for a mixup. Also, use them to cover your unsafe moves. = = = = Hopefully that helps a little bit o.o
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Post by Purple Moss on Mar 5, 2015 21:29:09 GMT -5
Interesting thread! I'll check out some of the advice posted here.
What do you think of attempting the 'missions' in games like Marvel vs. Capcom 3 or KoF XIII? In the former I usually reach the 6th or 7th mission, while in the latter I can barely make it past the 4th - so can I apply the combos I perform in actual battles? Or is it purely technical training?
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Post by Aoi on Mar 6, 2015 4:29:24 GMT -5
Interesting thread! I'll check out some of the advice posted here. What do you think of attempting the 'missions' in games like Marvel vs. Capcom 3 or KoF XIII? In the former I usually reach the 6th or 7th mission, while in the latter I can barely make it past the 4th - so can I apply the combos I perform in actual battles? Or is it purely technical training? Trials and Missions have pretty much become my "single player" mode (aside from training mode hehe). I now see fighters as a puzzle game where you gotta figure out how to do these combos. KoF's are considered the hardest in the genre. With that said though, they're really not practical in a real match. I can only think of a few that are actually useful in SFIV... They do attempt to teach you combo entrances/links/and connecting to a super though. Even if they're not practical, they usually set you up for success by other means. Your best bet is just going online and looking up a character's bread and butter combo(s). KoF's were a little better as they really showed off hit confirms and command normal fillers. MvC3's were probably the most useless =3
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Post by keobas on Mar 6, 2015 6:20:28 GMT -5
It's important to remember that these games take a lot of practice and dedication too. It really doesn't matter if you have a sensei buddy to teach you in real time, you're still gonna take many hours learning each lessons. Sure, a friend who's able to tell you what you're doing wrong and right goes a long way, it's still gonna be a commitment. By commitment, I'm talking hundreds of hours... These techniques are 90% experience. So, perhaps instead of looking for an easy game to pickup or easy tutorials to be given, throw away a bit of pride and learn to lose. Reflect on why you lost, get up, and try again. *insert Rocky quote or somethin here* As player who has invested majority of time into fighter Aoi about.... 110% For experience and what it'll take. While it will take alot practice and dedication don't mistake "playing for x amount of time" as learning. Every one has their own way of learning and you must be aware of your own learning ability to grasp things. Some like spreadsheet with data you can review and other like seeing stuff in practice , even challenging the concept a learning tool (learning counter techniques or strategy's). While their is a ot of gray area's to this subject. Playing to win while subjective is true for the most part. Playing for fun is the understatement because all forms of recreation activity is fun but their different types of fun and fighter leans more on the competitive side. Now there is such thing as being to competitive too, learn to find your own ballance so youc an enjoy the healthy fun/competitive experince that fighter provide.
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Post by Allie on Mar 6, 2015 8:37:31 GMT -5
Even against AI, I honestly have no intuition/perception for naturally understanding strategies, links, frame advantage, etc.
I really wish Skullgirls wasn't considered the only game with a decent "let's explain to you how this actually works beyond basic operations" tutorial, because I really have zero interest in the art and character design of that game...
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Post by Bobinator on Mar 6, 2015 10:25:43 GMT -5
The new Killer Instinct has a tutorial that goes even more in-depth than Skullgirls does, i'd say. The first half of these handles the usual stuff like moving, attacking, and things like combo breakers. It even has a section on how to deal with fireball spam, which I have to admit is surprisingly forward-thinking of the devs. After that, t goes into stuff like crossups, buffering attacks into your forward dash, and knowing how your hitboxes work. It's pretty deep stuff.
Of course, all this would be a lot better if it had a PC port. Which it will. It has to.
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Post by Allie on Mar 6, 2015 10:31:53 GMT -5
The new Killer Instinct has a tutorial that I'd say goes even more in-depth than Skullgirls does, i'd say. The first half of these handles the usual stuff like moving, attacking, and things like combo breakers. It even has a section on how to deal with fireball spam, which I have to admit is surprisingly forward-thinking of the devs. After that, t goes into stuff like crossups, buffering attacks into your forward dash, and knowing how your hitboxes work. It's pretty deep stuff. Of course, all this would be a lot better if it had a PC port. Which it will. It has to. Unfortunate that it's on a system I don't have, since I won't be buying any new systems ever again. Of course, if it does get a PC port, I'll still have to get a new machine to run it all the same, heh.
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Post by The Great Klaid on Mar 6, 2015 11:27:56 GMT -5
Fighting games do seem like you have to make an honest attempt to learn them. And when you're learning the game at first the AI is invaluable. Because you sure as hell don't start with learning strategy. And AI on easyish is a really good way to figure out mechanics. You learn what works and what doesn't in practice. Especially if you're a complete noob. Really AI is the best way to figure out what everything does. When I try a new character I always take him through Arcade mode first to at least get a feel for the guy. Because getting bodied over and over again isn't fun. And you don't learn a damn thing. I'm not great or particularly really good, but I have fun playing online these days, so if that's the level you want to be at there ya go.
Also, yeah Street Fighter 4 is a really good place to start. Not overly complicated. Good simple stuff.
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