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Post by neozeedeater on Jun 28, 2016 9:27:41 GMT -5
Monster Lair is the only one where I would go for a non-Sega-published version first. The CD soundtrack is awesome.
I prefer SMS Monster Land over the arcade, mostly because of tighter controls.
Dragon's Curse may have smoother scrolling than Dragon's Trap but the physics feel a bit off, and the new character designs look like bad rom hacks that clash with the rest of game's look. The SMS version is the way to go. It's cool that the Wii VC SMS version has an FM sound option.
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Post by wyrdwad on Jun 28, 2016 11:49:39 GMT -5
Until I read this topic, I didn't even know the Wii VC had Dragon's Trap on it.
I may need to buy that!
-Tom
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Post by 1upsuper on Jun 28, 2016 14:28:19 GMT -5
So now I'm a bit confused. I was playing Monster Land on the little PSN Wonder Boy collection (that's where my save stating comes from, not PC), and I thought that version of Monster Land was the arcade version based on screenshots and videos I had seen (it had that grey bar on the left side with all your character info and items). But in the final dungeon, whether or not you credit feed, it kicks you back to the start of the game, which you guys are saying is what the SMS version does.
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Post by Nester the Lark on Jun 28, 2016 16:32:57 GMT -5
The arcade version of Wonder Boy in Monster Land allows you to credit-feed until you get to the final stage, at which point a game over is a game over. Some other Sega arcade games in the '80s also did this, like Shinobi.
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Post by Aoi on Jun 28, 2016 16:55:58 GMT -5
In the PC Engine, Bikkuriman World, did your gold carry over after continues? It seemed like Arino would struggle at a stage, but because he ran through the same two enemies so many times trying he had plenty of gold to use at the shop. That was bar none my biggest issue, gold. I was still using the light shoes (ice shoes, as it turns out) in the 8th stage. Most of my equipment was totally obsolete, I had no clue about hidden gold areas (how would I), I couldn't grind or quarter feed more money because a continue would just take it away... So I played the majority of the game with lvl 1 sword, armor, shield, and shoes. In my opinion, unless you're godlike at this game, it just becomes impossible after missing so many items.
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Post by Aoi on Jun 29, 2016 6:14:45 GMT -5
Sorry for double post:
I've been playing Bikkuriman World, it definitely has different gameplay rules than the arcade version. I don't understand why every website says they're identical (except for the graphics).
-You keep ALL gold upon death and continue. -You keep ALL items/equipment upon death, even power-ups. -Continuing begins you at beginning of Round, not the same screen you were on (as it did in arcade). -You LOSE all HP containers (from pts extends) upon death. I believe the arcade version allowed you to keep them. -If you defeat a boss and collect a sword upgrade, then game over, it's possible to fight that same boss again for the next level sword upgrade.
Being able to fully explore the stages and collect gold at your leisure makes this version the best, imo. Also, I've grown kind of partial to the sprites o.o. With this version I've made it to the final castle with a complete set of equipment this time. Dat maze tho -__-
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Post by Discoalucard on Jun 29, 2016 9:04:19 GMT -5
It's been awhile since I played it, so don't take any of this as gospel, but didn't the arcade version boot you to the start to the level when you died? I think it was the same as the PCE game in that regard. I thought you could keep your gold in the arcade version after dying too. Unless there was some difference between the XBLA arcade version and the Japanese MAME arcade version, since the XBLA one is the last one I played.
For the final level, you can do that subquest to get the bell, which makes the navigating the maze (though not actually conquering it) trivial. I think the game was meant to be played is that you'd use the bell on the first complete playthrough to navigate the maze, which you could then document, since it's always the same. Then, if you failed to beat the final boss, on a subsequent playthrough you could get the ruby, which make the boss easier, and you can just follow your notes rather than relying on the bell.
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Post by Aoi on Jun 29, 2016 9:29:05 GMT -5
I played the Japanese arcade version 2 days ago. Your gold and items "save" whenever you reach screen transition. If that screen nets you 30g, but you die before next transition, then you revert to beginning of last transition with last gold amount.
For instance dropping down the well, that cave is the second area/transition of the level. In that cave is a boss and armor shop. In arcade, you die to boss, you return to bottom of well with the exact gold you initially had. This makes earning enough gold for the armor impossible if you didn't drop down with a decent amount.
In Bikkuriman, if you die to that same boss it sends you all the way back to start of round, in the woods with the kongs. Whatever gold you got in that cave continues with you, though... So, on my pce playthrough I was able to buy the good armor down there after a few continues.
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Post by Discoalucard on Jun 29, 2016 9:42:22 GMT -5
Ah, okay. That makes sense.
I think the original arcade game (and the SMS version) was designed around the inability to grind, since there's a time limit, and killing respawned enemies just gets you point items rather than gold. It's incentive to find the hidden gold, I guess (or do that weird bug/cheat in the arcade version which gives you tons of gold if you wiggle the joystick). Conversely, you can't explore TOO much, because, again, the time limit, so it's one of those things you'd pick up on multiple replays. Either it was added in to make the PCE version easier, or was just one of those porting oversights.
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Post by 1upsuper on Jun 29, 2016 16:23:57 GMT -5
I totally get the need to keep you moving given that it's an arcade game. For a home console port though, it sounds like Bikkuriman World is much more reasonable. Keeping with the time limit theme, if you spend too much time in a shop in the arcade version of Monster Land the shopkeep will say it's closing time and you'll get booted out with no way of getting back in (unless you die). Was this kept in Bikkuriman World or did they change that as well?
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Post by 1upsuper on Jun 30, 2016 0:17:58 GMT -5
I just beat Wonder Boy III: Monster Lair (TCD version) a few minutes ago. Have mixed feelings about this one. The OST is incredible, the big sprites are nice, bosses are cute and colorful, and the gameplay is somewhat novel. I'm a scrub so I ended up needing to use the 68K infinite continues cheat to get through it. Unfortunately, due to the way respawns are handled, this completely trivialized the game. I kinda wish the difficulty were reworked and you had more continues at the cost of restarting whatever half of the level you were on if you lose all your lives, because then you would actually have to play skillfully. But I could have just played skillfully and not used infinite continues to begin with and just practiced a lot, so that one is probably on me. In general I found the difficulty curve all over the place. In general the SHMUP sections were a lot easier than the at-times brutal platforming sections. Some bosses, like the little vampire bat, went down almost instantly with the torpedo upgrade, while others, like the slot machine mushroom or the ice guy (who actually was pretty inventive with his ice shots that grow as you hit them), took forever. I have to say though, the final boss really caught me off guard. Gonna spoiler this because Aoi might play through that one. Things got a bit interesting when I saw the first half of the last stage had the same metal background that the dragon's hallway had in Monster Land. Things got even more interesting when I hopped in a UFO, and then the final boss really surprised me. Did I really fight the hero of Monster Land, or was that just an alien recreation? He did use the wind and lightning magic of the hero...pretty interesting. Dragon was different though. I remembered at the end of Monster Land seeing the UFO fly away and assuming the dragon was escaping, but was it actually the hero of Monster Land getting aboard? Definitely did not expect this sort of interesting continuity from the series, at least within these first three titles. I was a little let down that you are in control when you pick up the awesome legendary armor and then the game just...ends. No chance to wear it and actually use it. Oh well. I was also let down by the very simple weapon upgrade system. No leveling up within each weapon type, and they're on a timer anyway unless you get to a boss with one of them, then it stays until you die, I believe. Really simple system and I'd expect more from a SHMUP from '88. So far I'd rank this barely above Wonder Boy and well below Monster Land. From what I can tell the TCD version is definitely the definitive version. Anyhow, from what I can tell I've made my way through the chaff and now I'm gonna start getting into the good stuff with Dragon's Trap. I ended up getting both Dragon's Trap and Dragon's Curse due to having some extra Wii points I forgot about, so I'll probably try both to see which I prefer.
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Post by Discoalucard on Jun 30, 2016 8:39:04 GMT -5
The upside of becoming familiar with Monster Lair is that Monster World (the Genesis one) makes some references to it, so you'll be able to pick up on them.
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Post by ommadawnyawn2 on Jun 30, 2016 11:57:32 GMT -5
and they're on a timer anyway unless you get to a boss with one of them, then it stays until you die, I believe. I don't think that was the case in other versions, which is why I recommended the code (but it's only available for the MD version IIRC). In the arcade version, credits stop working in the final level. So that sucks without save states, but I believe it has one more level than the TCD version while the MD version is missing like 3+ levels. But the arcade game repeats background themes at least once. I think the game would've benefited from a weapon inventory since some parts in the run 'n gun segments are much harder to survive with the wrong weapon, at least in 1-player mode.
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Post by 1upsuper on Jun 30, 2016 21:59:02 GMT -5
I just beat Dragon's Trap (SMS). Really nice, cute little game. Very simple open world game but it worked well. Nice little secrets here and there, and swapping between different forms and backtracking for stuff was fun. The charm points system was actually kind of interesting and encouraged more back tracking. The final boss was actually pretty tough, but not for the right reasons, IMO. I ended up having to go through that final dungeon 4-5 times. Even with the legendary gear the zombie dragon deals a lot of damage. His pattern is easy enough to figure out but there's still opportunity for him to hurt you, particularly when he comes up from below. My biggest gripe with the game is how frustrating it is to go up one screen while hawk-man. I could never figure out a consistent way to not just immediately fall back down a screen and it would take several tries and button mashing to actually stay on that upper screen. As much as I like the pig shopkeeper, I was a bit disappointed that they took a step back from Monster Land and its several different shopkeeper portraits and replaced them with two different colored pigs and the nurse. I'll probably go through Dragon's Curse eventually since it's a good enough game to go through a few times, IMO. Onto Monster World.
E: forgot to add my current game rankings. Wonder Boy < Wonder Boy III: Monster Lair << Wonder Boy in Monster Land = Wonder Boy III: Dragon's Trap. The two best in the series so far, ML and DT, both suffer some final dungeon issues, and I'm hoping I get a satisfying final area and boss in Monster World or Monster World IV.
E2: Fuck this ocarina
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Post by ommadawnyawn2 on Jul 1, 2016 1:35:19 GMT -5
I don't remember if it was doable on SMS, but on GG you can change form right before the final boss using the tasmanian sword. Also you might've noticed but different gear is better suited for different forms, I don't think going full legendary was the best for Hawkman.
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