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Post by Apollo Chungus on Oct 6, 2018 15:17:24 GMT -5
I'm sitting at the computer with time to kill, so I thought I'd start a thread on what is considered by some to be a fairly infamous Zelda clone: Neutopia.
These are a pair of games made in the late 80s/early 90s for the PC-Engine by Hudson Soft, the developer responsible for franchises like Bomberman and Bonk, and they've gotten a reputation for being a very... 'liberal' adaptation of the original Legend of Zelda. They both have the same set-up: you play as a hero with a sword who travels around an overworld to find dungeons, where you solve very simple puzzles (i.e. kill all enemies, push a block, or bomb a wall) and find your way to the boss and the magical item they guard. There are differences, but most of them result in the game being much easier and less complex than its inspiration - you have less permanent items to help you out, the overworld is divided into chunks to make dungeon hunting easier, you're given straightforward hints and a magic compass to help you out, etc.
I've been playing them lately, since I'm planning on reviewing them for the website, and I wanted to know what people think of the games. I can't seem to find any contemporary reviews of either game; only Virtual Consoles reviews; but I'll admit that maybe I haven't been looking hard enough and I need some direction on where to go. Regardless, I'm still curious to know what y'all think.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 6, 2018 15:20:25 GMT -5
Never tried these personally, but friends who had TG-16s in their youth have always praised them highly. How's the music?
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Post by Apollo Chungus on Oct 6, 2018 15:32:27 GMT -5
It's decent enough. I'm particularly fond of the dungeon theme. However, the loops are very, very short - this isn't inherently bad, but when you're spending a lot of time in these dungeons or overworlds, it can get quite grating. I need to play more of the second game, but I like how some of the music tracks are rearrangements of the first game's music (e.g. the first overworld theme is based on the Land Sphere theme from the first game). That's a really cool touch for fans of the original!
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Post by Deleted on Oct 6, 2018 16:17:11 GMT -5
Ah, that does sound cool! It's a shame how poorly the PC Engine did overseas.
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Post by toei on Oct 6, 2018 17:36:21 GMT -5
I finished both years ago and thought they were just okay, but then I'm not a big fan of the original Zelda, either. Neutopia certainly had very superior technology to Zelda when it came out in 1989, but in a way that was misleading, because the design is thoroughly 8-bit (and derivative). Still, if you compare it to those early Zelda clones rather than Zelda itself - I don't mean ARPGs in general, but the actual Zelda clones that you find on the Famicom and FDS - it was probably a notch over. It's also worth pointing out that the colors are great, which was one of the PCE's strong points, and so is the Neutopia 2 overworld theme, though you're right that those loops are short. The composer went on to have a long career, including, inevitably, composing for Bomberman games, and sound programming for Mario Party games. The second game steps a bit further away from Zelda 1 by having actual towns, something top-down Zelda didn't have until Link's Awakening (A Link to the Past had only one), which gives it a bit more of an RPG feel, though sadly they're still divided into separate screens instead of scrolling. It came out a bit before A Link to the Past in Japan, so it avoided looking and feeling too dated out the gate, but I'm not sure about the North American release date. I'd still recommend it to big fans of NES Zelda. The director and main designer of the second game had some experience by then and went on to make a bunch of Bomberman games, so I feel he had a decent grip on the basics of playability, and the game handles well from what I remember. As for the "infamous" part... every game that has some impact generates a bunch of clones, until other developers start to inject their own takes and ideas into the mix and it turns into a genre. The Neutopia games aren't any worse in that regard than any number of early Doom clones or Street Fighter 2 clones that added nothing of their own, and in fact, there are plenty of lesser-known, Japan-only Zelda clones on the NES and Famicom Disk System (romhacking.net is a good place to start if you want to check some out, as many have been fan translated) that aren't any more original. Holding out Neutopia as some infamous example, as I've seen some do (not accusing you of this as you're still researching the topic), shows a myopic vision of video game history.
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Post by condroid on Oct 7, 2018 4:24:41 GMT -5
I think both of these games were fairly well-regarded back in the day. They are somewhat derivative, but competent clones which makes them a bit forgettable but they are fine games on their own. I'm pretty sure you can find reviews in old magazines, like this from EGM #10 and here's a few more in German.
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Post by Apollo Chungus on Oct 7, 2018 6:07:07 GMT -5
As for the "infamous" part... every game that has some impact generates a bunch of clones, until other developers start to inject their own takes and ideas into the mix and it turns into a genre. The Neutopia games aren't any worse in that regard than any number of early Doom clones or Street Fighter 2 clones that added nothing of their own, and in fact, there are plenty of lesser-known, Japan-only Zelda clones on the NES and Famicom Disk System (romhacking.net is a good place to start if you want to check some out, as many have been fan translated) that aren't any more original. Holding out Neutopia as some infamous example, as I've seen some do (not accusing you of this as you're still researching the topic), shows a myopic vision of video game history. Huh. I had no idea that, even for a while, there was a whole bunch of Zelda clones that only came out in Japan (to be fair, I'm ignorant of a good chunk of pop culture - I'd never even heard of the 'six degrees of freedom' shooter genre existed until Digital Foundry did an episode on the recently re-released Forsaken). The only other game I know from that particular era of games based on the original Zelda was Golden Axe Warrior on the Master System. Can you give me a few examples of other Zelda clones on the NES/FDS, since I don't really know where to start? If I'm gonna be reviewing Neutopia, I may as well do what I can to properly contextualise them now that I know that I don't know enough. Thank you for pointing this out to me.
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Post by phediuk on Oct 7, 2018 10:53:58 GMT -5
As for the "infamous" part... every game that has some impact generates a bunch of clones, until other developers start to inject their own takes and ideas into the mix and it turns into a genre. The Neutopia games aren't any worse in that regard than any number of early Doom clones or Street Fighter 2 clones that added nothing of their own, and in fact, there are plenty of lesser-known, Japan-only Zelda clones on the NES and Famicom Disk System (romhacking.net is a good place to start if you want to check some out, as many have been fan translated) that aren't any more original. Holding out Neutopia as some infamous example, as I've seen some do (not accusing you of this as you're still researching the topic), shows a myopic vision of video game history. Huh. I had no idea that, even for a while, there was a whole bunch of Zelda clones that only came out in Japan (to be fair, I'm ignorant of a good chunk of pop culture - I'd never even heard of the 'six degrees of freedom' shooter genre existed until Digital Foundry did an episode on the recently re-released Forsaken). The only other game I know from that particular era of games based on the original Zelda was Golden Axe Warrior on the Master System. Can you give me a few examples of other Zelda clones on the NES/FDS, since I don't really know where to start? If I'm gonna be reviewing Neutopia, I may as well do what I can to properly contextualise them now that I know that I don't know enough. Thank you for pointing this out to me. Golvellius (Master System) Lord of the Sword (Zelda 2 clone)
Rygar on the NES (basically half Zelda 1, half Zelda 2) Battle of Olympus (NES; Zelda 2 clone) Rambo (NES; Zelda 2 clone) The Ganbare Goemon Famicom games Legend of Valkyrie (Famicom) King Kong 2 (Famicom; a more actionized take) Sylvan Tale (Game Gear) Tails Adventure (Game Gear; Zelda 2 clone)
Ai Senshi Nicol (FDS) Seiken Psycho Calibur (FDS)
Startropics series (NES) Willow (NES)
Crystalis (NES) Spiritual Warfare (NES) Robin Hood: Prince of Thieves (NES) The Magic of Scheherazade (NES)
Getsu Fuma Den (NES; Zelda 2 clone) God of Thunder (DOS) Al-Qadim (DOS) Dark Sun: Shattered Lands (DOS) The Quest for Thelda (DOS) Speris Legacy (Amiga) Dragonstone (Amiga)
Spooky Castle: The Adventures of Kid Mystic (Windows)
Beyond Oasis (Genesis) Crusader of Centy (Genesis) Landstalker (Genesis) Light Crusader (Genesis) King Colossus (Genesis) Arcus Odyssey (Genesis)
Ladystalker (SNES)
Lagoon (SNES version; X68000 is more like Ys) Spike McFang (SNES) Goof Troop (SNES) Soul Blazer, Illusion of Gaia, Terranigma (SNES) Alcahest (SNES) Gunman's Proof (SNES) Holy Umbrella (SNES; Zelda 2 clone) Marvellous (SNES)
Secret of Evermore (SNES) Addams Family Values (SNES) Young Merlin (SNES) Lord of the Rings (SNES) King Arthur and the Knights of Justice (SNES) Brandish (SNES) Brain Lord (SNES)
Daikatana (GBC) Alundra (PS1) Monkey Hero (PS1) Community Pom (PS1) Granstream Saga (PS1)
Magic Knight Rayearth (Saturn) Shining Wisdom (Saturn) Dark Savior (Saturn) Legend of Oasis (Saturn)
Final Fantasy Adventure (GB) James Bond 007 (GB) Rolan's Curse (GB) For the Frog the Bell Tolls (GB) Secret Quest (Atari 2600) Midnight Mutants (Atari 7800)
and more I'm forgetting.
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Post by kaoru on Oct 7, 2018 11:31:52 GMT -5
A good part of that list, like the Heaven and Earth games or Secret of Evermore for example, aren't even close to be considered "Zelda Clones". Unless every single Action Adventure/RPG with a top down perspective is now one.
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Post by phediuk on Oct 7, 2018 11:55:20 GMT -5
A good part of that list, like the Heaven and Earth games or Secret of Evermore for example, aren't even close to be considered "Zelda Clones". Unless every single Action Adventure/RPG with a top down perspective is now one. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
you just can't please everyone.
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Neutopia
Oct 7, 2018 12:06:05 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by lurker on Oct 7, 2018 12:06:05 GMT -5
Isn’t Getsu Fuma Den more of a Castlevania clone?
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Post by mainpatr on Oct 7, 2018 13:32:22 GMT -5
Dragonstone for Amiga is missing from the list. Spooky Castle is more like Gauntlet than Zelda.
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Post by toei on Oct 7, 2018 14:15:50 GMT -5
A good part of that list, like the Heaven and Earth games or Secret of Evermore for example, aren't even close to be considered "Zelda Clones". Unless every single Action Adventure/RPG with a top down perspective is now one. Very strongly agreed with kaoru. That's exactly why I wrote something like "not every arpg, but actual Zelda clones". No offense, phediuk, but that's a long-held pet peeve of mine. You don't hear anybody just refer to every platformer as a "Mario clone" or whatever, and Zelda didn't invent ARPGs, though it was hugely influential. I was talking specifically of games divided into separate screens that feature dungeons built like Zelda's and control similarly. Holy Umbrella isn't a "Zelda clone 2" by any stretch, it has top-down towns, platformer levels, and no random encounters. It isn't useful to stretch definitions just as to make lists as long as possible. There's a distinction between a clone - a game that follows its inspiration extremely, handles like it, maybe even looks like it - and a game that just belongs to the same genre. Apollo Chungus Off the top, there's Seiken Psycho Calibur, 1987, FDS. Very close to Zelda. Jajamaru Gekimaden, that's a little more original - you're a ninja with a yo-yo, and there are towns as well. Released in 1990, after Neutopia. Nintendo's own Nazo no Murasame-jou (1986, FDS) plays very closely, but is focused on action. I'm linking to the translation patches because we can't link to ROMs (it's a Proboards prohibition), but there's probably youtube videos of these as well. Of course, there's also Golden Axe Warrior that you already named, but it's interesting that it also came out pretty late (1991), and only in the West. Gunman's Proof's (SNES, 1997) core gameplay is basically Zelda with a gun, and its overworld and dungeons are built like Zelda's, but it also has a quirky sense of humor to set it apart (and aliens, which also make it kind of Earthbound-ish). I'm a little busy today, but I'll be back tomorrow with more examples. I don't blame you for not knowing about these, as they're all obscure in the West, however my impression is that you take researching your articles pretty seriously, as I do, so the more knowledge the better, right? I don't deny that Hudson Soft's impetus for creating Neutopia was likely "hey, the PCE should have its own Zelda-style game", same as for Golden Axe Warrior, but my point is more that it's not an unusual or particularly brazen thing to do in the video game business.
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Post by phediuk on Oct 7, 2018 14:29:21 GMT -5
Dragonstone for Amiga is missing from the list. Spooky Castle is more like Gauntlet than Zelda. Nice. Added.
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Post by phediuk on Oct 7, 2018 14:37:09 GMT -5
A good part of that list, like the Heaven and Earth games or Secret of Evermore for example, aren't even close to be considered "Zelda Clones". Unless every single Action Adventure/RPG with a top down perspective is now one. Very strongly agreed with kaoru. That's exactly why I wrote something like "not every arpg, but actual Zelda clones". No offense, phediuk, but that's a long-held pet peeve of mine. You don't hear anybody just refer to every platformer as a "Mario clone" or whatever, and Zelda didn't invent ARPGs, though it was hugely influential. I was talking specifically of games divided into separate screens that feature dungeons built like Zelda's and control similarly. Holy Umbrella isn't a "Zelda clone 2" by any stretch, it has top-down towns, platformer levels, and no random encounters. It isn't useful to stretch definitions just as to make lists as long as possible. There's a distinction between a clone - a game that follows its inspiration extremely, handles like it, maybe even looks like it - and a game that just belongs to the same genre.
Don't get too hung up on the word "clone". Furthermore, almost every game I listed follows your stated formula to a tee, but hey, whatever, why do I even bother doing this stuff. Obviously I'm an idiot who just wants to make superfluous lists because I'm some Zelda fanboy or whatever. Bye.
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