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Post by chronotigger65 on Feb 11, 2019 23:58:50 GMT -5
I seem to got a bit of a desire to play my old Kings Quest Collection from the mid-late 90's but don't have the type of computer to run it. I know there are ways to obtain vintage computers or build your own but I not sure what's the best way going to doing that. There's recycle centers, Ebay and such but what's the best way to do it. I REALLY would like help if I decide to go through with this.
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Post by Owlman on Feb 12, 2019 5:35:53 GMT -5
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Post by zellsf on Feb 12, 2019 5:58:41 GMT -5
ScummVM is also an alternative that runs on more platforms than DOSBox and should have lower system requirements.
According to the entry I found on Mobygames the collection does not include King's Quest 8, which is more tricky to get to run on modern computers, but it's not like setting up a vintage computer is an easy task either.
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Post by dsparil on Feb 12, 2019 6:07:28 GMT -5
There are community projects for getting KQ8 running on modern hardware. It also works fine in WINE if you have access to a Linux or Mac system.
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Post by chronotigger65 on Feb 12, 2019 6:25:48 GMT -5
No no no. I'm not looking to use modern hardware to play older games. I'm looking for the original systems from the time the games came out. I've seen a video showing a recycle store that can help make a older computer so I know one can get or build one but that store is all the way in Seattle which is not an option. I've also come to realize that, after posting the thread, I have some other older games from around the time of the KQ Collection that I'd like to play like Diablo 2 and King's Quest Mask of Eternity but it won't run on my modern stuff no matter what I do. So getting something older seems to be the only way to go.
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Post by zellsf on Feb 12, 2019 7:15:56 GMT -5
Just a fair warning, it sounds by your last post like you think getting those games working on vintage computers will be easier: it won't.
Sure get vintage computers for nostalgia reasons or to play games on the hardware they were made for, but don't think vintage PC gaming is easy.
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Post by starscream on Feb 12, 2019 8:47:23 GMT -5
Just a fair warning, it sounds by your last post like you think getting those games working on vintage computers will be easier: it won't. Sure get vintage computers for nostalgia reasons or to play games on the hardware they were made for, but don't think vintage PC gaming is easy. Oh yes. I got myself an old thin client some time ago, and turned it into a small, silent Win98 SE machine. I only vaguely remember the days when I actually used Win98 back in the day, I thought that most issues were mostly due to not having access to the internet and me not having a clue back then. ....And now I'm really appreciating the stability that Windows XP (with service packs) brought. And the interaction with DOS is another matter. In my case I planned it as a bonus anyway, because the onboard sound isn't pure DOS compatible and I don't want to a sound card in the sole PCI slot. Very strictly speaking, building a machine that plays stuff accurately from the very early DOS days up to Diablo 2 is also probably not possible, it requires different outputs and matching displays. So you're probably going with a standard VGA-compatible output. But of course then there can be other issues, like CPU speed, too much for DOS games, too little for Win...whatever. I don't know how well the King's quest collection behaves. I guess you could be fine with playing anything mentioned with a Pentium II, maybe a fast Pentium MMX. |
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Post by dsparil on Feb 12, 2019 9:34:51 GMT -5
There's zero reason to use "vintage" hardware to play DOS and Windows games since there are perfectly fine emulators for DOS and compatibilities layers for Windows. This isn't like a console where everything needs to be absolutely perfect to get accurate emulation. There apparently are ways of running WINE on Windows which I assume include using the Windows Subsystem for Linux in 10. Getting DOS games to run in actual DOS can be an enormous hassle largely because DOS isn't really even a true operating system lacking really basic features like hardware abstraction.
Diablo II also has recent official patches that get it working on everything up to 10.
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Post by jorpho on Feb 12, 2019 9:51:49 GMT -5
I have some other older games from around the time of the KQ Collection that I'd like to play like Diablo 2 and King's Quest Mask of Eternity but it won't run on my modern stuff no matter what I do. So getting something older seems to be the only way to go. Diablo 2 is probably one of the most popular computer games ever released. Whatever problem you are encountering, someone out there has come up with a solution. If you start looking at vintage hardware, you will end up with MANY MORE problems. Your living space will fill with dusty boxes of computer parts that you will spend far more time mucking with than you will ever spend actually playing games. Do not take this path. There apparently are ways of running WINE on Windows which I assume include using the Windows Subsystem for Linux in 10. The only real way is BoxedWine, which effectively is DOSBox running Linux running WINE. I may be mistaken, but I think the Windows Subsystem for Linux is still too far from Linux to run WINE. The WINE D3D DLLs can also be compiled and used separately from the rest of WINE and are useful in some cases. |
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Post by dsparil on Feb 12, 2019 12:19:45 GMT -5
There apparently are ways of running WINE on Windows which I assume include using the Windows Subsystem for Linux in 10. The only real way is BoxedWine, which effectively is DOSBox running Linux running WINE. I may be mistaken, but I think the Windows Subsystem for Linux is still too far from Linux to run WINE. The WINE D3D DLLs can also be compiled and used separately from the rest of WINE and are useful in some cases. DOSBox running Linux doesn't make any sense  It seems to stick stock WINE on top of of a Linux compatibility layer and run that way. If it actually works, the performance hit is going to be negligible for older titles and could be a simple solution. I've seen references to people running WINE on top of Cygwin without issue, and an official solution like WSL is probably going to run even better since there's a team of full-time developers behind it. WSL can run X11 without issue. Edit: WINE on WSL is a no go because WSL only supports 64-bit applications and WINE requires some 32-bit support even for the 64-bit version. BoxedWine might be the best way to go then. A little impressed that it actually works as a web app too although a version of Windows 95 as an Electron app (standalone web app) with working networking came out a few days ago. |
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Post by eatersthemanfool on Feb 15, 2019 23:10:06 GMT -5
I can absolutely get wanting to fiddle with old hardware but yea, it is in no means going to be easier than using an emulator. That stuff was a nightmare to work with when it was new, and age is not kind.
I heard that goodwill stocks old PC's in their online store but I haven't looked into that. Otherwise, estate sales and junk shops sometimes let you find stuff.
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Post by edmonddantes on Feb 17, 2019 15:36:57 GMT -5
Okay, speaking as the one guy who actually did build a vintage PC (two of them) I can offer some advice.
First of all, avoid Dell motherboards. While my second PC is a Dell and I love it, I didn't know going in that Dell's stuff is very proprietary, so you need a Dell case to go with a Dell motherboard, whereas anything else is generic.
Second, if you intend to run in real DOS mode, make sure, when purchasing a motherboard, that there is an ISA slot. This will be for your sound card (I recommend a Sound Blaster 16). PCI sound cards can work in DOS, but ISA cards are just less of a headache in that regard.
I have no idea why people keep saying that there's no perfect solution that can run both old DOS games and Windows 98 games... my own PC does exactly that. I've mentioned it before (I call it "Mazinkaiser" because yes, I name my computers), and here are its components:
--an Epox-8KTA motherboard (these are known to have bad capacitors so if you get one you might want to immediately send it in to badcaps.net for repairs)
-- a Soundblaster 16 sound card (as mentioned, its an ISA)
-- a Voodoo 3 2000 (this is not strictly necessary unless you really want the Glide API, something more common like an ATI Rage Pro will do just as well. And no, it doesn't matter whether its a PCI or AGP, both will work with DOS)
-- 700mhz AMD Duron processor
-- 512mb of RAM
Now, one other thing I should mention is keyboards and mice... you CAN use USB Keyboards, but only if you have an adapter to plug them into a PS/2 or old serial port (and yes, it is possible to daisy-chain adapters... I heavily recommend getting a motherboard that has ps/2 ports tho). There is an option in most BIOSes from the late 90s to enable "Legacy USB" and you should turn this on. That said though, your mouse should be a ps/2 mouse because DOS will not recognize a USB mouse (there are drivers for this, but they are memory hogs and will make it impossible to play King's Quest with a USB mouse... whereas a ps/2 mouse will be seen as just a normal serial mouse). Main reason I recommend ps/2 is because I love optical mice, and if you're stuck with an old Com2 port... optical mice exist, but they always require special mousepads, and I imagine you'd rather just have a mouse that works (and is easily replaceable if it goes bad).
Now, most of my own thinking was that "there is no kill like overkill" and most of this stuff was cheap at the time, but yeah, my design is way overkill for DOS games and even for Windows games, considering it can't even run the games that are close to actually needing the amount of RAM I put in. The thing is good at what it does, but in particular you do not need a Voodoo graphics card. If you do get one though, attach a fan or heat sink to it, because those things overheat like bastards.
Modern PSUs will indeed work. It doesn't need to be more than 400 watts.
The King's Quest games behave very well--I read somewhere that most of them actually lack the speed issues that afflict other Sierra games (with the remake of KQ1 being the exception). When I played them though, I didn't take chances and used a program by Bret Johnson called Slowdown... rather, I used an optional component that disables the CPU cache without having to go into the Bios.
I honestly think you should install Windows 98 Second Edition. There is a way to make it boot to DOS every time (and you can use the command "win" to go to Windows whenever you want) and its version of DOS is easier and less headache-inducing than DOS 6.22 and earlier, and for creating things like custom autoexec.bat and config.sys its more straightforward--mostly you only have to point to the basic drivers and such.
I'm in the middle of something and having trouble focusing, so if there's something you want to know more about, ask and I'll get back to you.
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Post by zellsf on Feb 18, 2019 7:34:27 GMT -5
I have no idea why people keep saying that there's no perfect solution that can run both old DOS games and Windows 98 games... I don't think anybody did? Except for the perfect part, I'll say that now: nothing is perfect. One person suggested a PC set up to optimally run Diablo II wouldn't run DOS games very well and I agree, Diablo II is better suited for XP-era computers. What is often said however is that there is no perfect "vintage computer" that will run everything old easily. With a computer suited for later Windows 98 games, you will have some issues with DOS games that don't like faster processors and you won't get to play any titles that requires Windows XP. |
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Post by edmonddantes on Feb 19, 2019 10:59:19 GMT -5
Ummm dude... double-check Diablo II's system requirements. Its minimum is a 233mhz PC with 32mb of RAM running Windows 95/98 and with Direct X 6.1 installed (for reference, Direct X 6 premiered with Win98 and DX9 premiered with XP). an XP comp is OVERKILL for Diablo II.
For some reason Blizzard's official site lists something much higher but the thing I quoted is what's on the game's own box and readme file.
You are right that I sometimes have to deal with speed issues on my own rig, but that's why I suggested that Slowdown program (though I also do still have Dosbox installed for some really absurd cases... Wing Commander being one case where I prefer playing via Dosbox to trying out real-DOS solutions simply because it'll allow me to use joysticks that Win98 detects but DOS doesn't).
And yeah.... if you want a PC that can naturally play everything from DOS to XP, that in my experience is borderline impossible, which is why I have two comps for different ranges of years.
....
Some more advice for the OP:
1. Don't install any DirectX higher than 8.1 (honestly even I max out at 8.0). While 98SE can support DX9 I had issues with it and its better to just not deal with the headaches. If it requires DX9 then it works on XP anyway and would probably play better there.
2. Some adventure games like Myst and Riven require a version of Quicktime. On my PC I ran into visual glitches in Riven when I installed Quicktime 6 (which annoyingly is the version included on the Ubisoft trilogy release, which I have two copies of)... I strongly recommend you stick to version 5 or lower, which produced no glitches for me. Its possible to install multiple versions but I'm not sure its necessarily a good idea.
EDIT
3. Cooling. This is something that can be a problem with old PCs which didn't normally have well-ventilated cases--in fact my "Mazinkaiser" was built specifically to replace a PC that kept having overheating issues (which would cause games and programs to behave in all sorts of strange ways). Things to do, for example, include getting a case specifically designed for ventilation (I have a Thermaltake V3), or add tons of fans--including one right next to the video card's heatsink (I had a Voodoo 3 that went bad because I thought stock cooling would be enough... it wasn't. In general, video cards always run hotter in PCs faster than what they were intended for, even if its only 100mhz faster, so add more cooling). Motherboards usually have plugs for three fans, and you can get more from your PSU with adapters sold online.
Video cards usually have little holes you can use to simply tie a fan to them (the fan should point AWAY from the main graphics chip/heat sink). Don't use normal string for this tho... what I use is wire from broken NES and Genesis controllers (I don't mean the big black cord.. I mean the little colored cords that are *inside* the big black one. I figure since these are already in an electric environment they must be safe for this repurposing. Just make sure the copper doesn't touch anything)
On that note... personally... a lot of people obsess over PCs running quietly, but I don't think it matters. Its all preference. To me tho, a noisy PC is a working PC.
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Post by eatersthemanfool on Feb 20, 2019 2:55:58 GMT -5
Hell, none of my old PC's were quiet. AFAIK they weren't supposed to be until recently.
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It seems to stick stock WINE on top of of a Linux compatibility layer and run that way. If it actually works, the performance hit is going to be negligible for older titles and could be a simple solution. I've seen references to people running WINE on top of Cygwin without issue, and an official solution like WSL is probably going to run even better since there's a team of full-time developers behind it. WSL can run X11 without issue.
