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Post by kitten on Sept 11, 2009 22:38:35 GMT -5
I can tell you love the genre, but it made me sad to see to many mediocre ones listed in place of ones that are so much better. Pffff... Which of those are mediocre? I've tried Mars Matrix on the Dreamcast and didn't really like it at all (although I will admit I didn't play it for a very long time). I like very few danmaku shooters, they really take away from the fun of the game and make me feel as though I'm piloting a dot through a series of dots. I'll readily admit that I've not played a lot of arcade shooters, but there's some reasoning behind this, and I'll address it here in just a minute. I don't like Strider. At all. I've beaten it a few times and just absolutely could not get into it. I loved the style, but I hated the way that it played. I've played Mercs and Shock Troopers, and I sincerely thought that they were both great games, but I just liked Neo Contra a lot more. Perhaps the over-the-top nature of it and ridiculousness of things like running on top of helicopter blades made me appreciate it more. Sometimes game's presentation is just the key factor in me liking it more. I've never played the Panzer Dragoon games, so I can't make a statement about those. Wild Guns is a game I've got some fond memories of and really appreciate for a variety of factors largely dependent on me having grown up on the SNES. I love the soundtrack and visuals, and sci-fi meets western is among my favorite genres ever. Maybe there are better ones, and maybe I'll play them and come to appreciate them more in the future, but Wild Guns just really stands out to me. I've not played Persona 4 yet because I've not finished 3. There's also something about the cast of characters in 4 that really fails to interest me. Also, and this might seem ridiculous to you, but I'm sticking to it, Persona 3 was themed around the color blue. I like the color blue. Persona 4, alternatively, seems to be pretty heavily centered around the color yellow, which I'm honestly not a fan of. My vibe gotten just from the artwork and characters of P3 was fairly spot-on (i.e. I was pretty confident I was going to enjoy it before playing it), where I'm just not feeling it with 4 (especially with the fact you have an ugly teddy bear as a party member, who's design I find incredibly terrible). That's true. I am confident in the choices I've made regarding the games that I have played, but despite having played well over one-thousand games, there are still thousands more out there that I have not played. This list is meant to be something that evolves with my taste and experiences, which is why I outright wanted to make it very clear that it was personal. In addition to wanting to make it entertaining to read, I also meant for it to be a journal, of sorts. I think that this list will change drastically over the years, as I hope to keep up with the hobby and simultaneously play what is new and discover what is old. I agree with this, to an extent, and hope for my list to become more filled with unique titles as it evolves. I've made a top 50 list in the past two years, which were both inferior to this one in terms of effort put into and taste that helped define them. This list has gotten considerably more reception, with a great deal of it being positive, so I'm very proud of it. Still, though, I definitely agree that it can be chopped down and refined, and I hope to do that over the next few years. You make note of a lot of things that I've already acknowledged, but just feel I'm not yet experienced enough to really do. I really appreciate that you see the potential in this list and seemed to have enjoyed it, and aren't afraid to comment on how much better that you think it could have been. As for why I haven't played more arcade games - I just don't want to emulate nearly as much as I used to. Arcade compilations are still being released and many of them are seeing a second life on digital distribution services like the Xbox Live Arcade. I would rather play them that way. It might seem like a silly move to make, but when I got big into emulating/pirating games, I felt desensitized to gaming, in general. It was all a gigantic overload that almost put me off gaming for a while. Not emulating allows me to enjoy what I have more and appreciate what I can afford more profoundly.
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Post by sunwoo on Sept 11, 2009 23:00:09 GMT -5
Wild Guns deserves a place in any list of good games. Sure, you could say there are others more polished, more complex and what not, but the game is just pure good ol fun. I gues my love for steampunk/western does help to like the game even more.
The lack of Ikaruga is just....disturbing. I can't even begin to think of any fan of the genre not liking that game. It doesn't make any sense, even if you write your reasoning behind it, it will still make no sense.
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Post by kyouki on Sept 11, 2009 23:12:16 GMT -5
Finally, I understand this is your list of your favorite games, but I would have liked to see a more gutsy "definitive best of..." list. A "Top 100 Games Ever!!!" list is just inviting criticism. You have to be a critic on the level of, I dunno, Ebert or someone (i.e. someone who's job it is to devote hours and hours a day to studying and thinking and critiquing material) to even attempt something like that. Because you'd have to be willing to convincingly argue that, say, Metal Gear Solid 4 is a better game- overall, in every way- than Contra or Tetris or whatever. And that would require playing all of those games (and more) thoroughly enough that you can express in words what makes one objectively a better game than another. Which is maybe impossible, because genre is so important in video games and if you aren't a high level fighting game player, how can you say that objectively Final Fantasy VII is a better game than Street Fighter 3 (or whatever)? If it's just a "My favorite Games ^.^" list you can reply to any criticism (or to anything really) with "well, it's JUST MY OPINION" and the discussion ends there. So for a forum post, the latter is probably better because you can just fire off a giant list of games you like and you don't have to be prepared to defend it at all, you can just bask in the warm glow of "great list!" and "Wow!" kinds of posts.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 11, 2009 23:13:52 GMT -5
The lack of Ikaruga is just....disturbing. I can't even begin to think of any fan of the genre not liking that game. It doesn't make any sense, even if you write your reasoning behind it, it will still make no sense. I'm sorry, but I just find this attitude ignorant. Kitten's reasons for liking what she does is simply based on her own personal tastes, as it should be, without any objective standard which apparently declares that everyone must like Ikaruga. She does not like Ikaruga, there is no basis to fault her for not liking Ikaruga, and that's all.
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Post by Smithee on Sept 11, 2009 23:15:37 GMT -5
Jesus Christ Mike-o I don't think he -actually- cares, he's just being a fun fucking fuck ;D
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Post by Deleted on Sept 11, 2009 23:20:42 GMT -5
Ngrhgh. I'm feeling more acidic than usual, probably due to playing too much Final Fantasy 2. I may have been bitter to Sun-Woo and I apologize, but I still stand by the basis of what I said in that everyone's favorite games are subjective. Hell, I'm sure even The Guy Game has its fans.
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Post by sunwoo on Sept 12, 2009 4:04:35 GMT -5
The lack of Ikaruga is just....disturbing. I can't even begin to think of any fan of the genre not liking that game. It doesn't make any sense, even if you write your reasoning behind it, it will still make no sense. I'm sorry, but I just find this attitude ignorant. Kitten's reasons for liking what she does is simply based on her own personal tastes, as it should be, without any objective standard which apparently declares that everyone must like Ikaruga. She does not like Ikaruga, there is no basis to fault her for not liking Ikaruga, and that's all. If she posted her list here is because she does want feedback, in one way or another, or at least wants to encourage some debate. I think her omission of Ikaruga is disturbing for anyone who considers themselves a fan of shmups. That's my opinion, i'm not aiming for being objective either. I think Ikaruga is a fantastic game that everyone should, if not like, at least respect in the same way they can respect a movie like The Godfather for the simple fact that is a well made piece of work. Again, i'm saying not liking, just recognize it's quality.
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Post by susanismyalias on Sept 12, 2009 6:49:30 GMT -5
Kitten, are you familiar with any of the Raizing/8ing shooters? If not, i'd like to recommend Battle Bakraid (Mame or Saturn) and Armed Police Batrider (MAME)
Also, I was curious to know whether you've played TF5 or Batsugun, as these are two of my all-time favorite shmups.
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Post by retr0gamer on Sept 12, 2009 10:21:55 GMT -5
As for the Halo talk, I'm not the biggest fan, but I'd also agree that at least Halo belongs also for the reason that it really was one of the first console FPSes that really standardized the controls and made it actually feel good on a controller. A lot of people think that but there were plenty of other FPS games on consoles that did the Halo control system years before Halo and did it just as well. Alien Resurrection and Quake 2 on the PS1 spring to mind. In regards to Neo Contra, there's plenty of better top down shooters like Mercs etc. but Neo Contra had a talking dog wearing a WW1 german generals outfit so wins it for me. I can see why you don't like bullet hell shooters. I hate them myself and much prefer the games you mention on the list. After Dodonpachi they just got ridiculous.
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Post by Justinzero on Sept 12, 2009 10:31:31 GMT -5
If not, i'd like to recommend Armed Police Batrider (MAME) Also, I was curious to know whether you've played TF5 or Batsugun, as these are two of my all-time favorite shmups. I totally second this, APB is an awesome shmup. The different ships available are insane, and I love those throwbacks to other series.
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Post by Smithee on Sept 12, 2009 11:37:08 GMT -5
I'm sorry, but I just find this attitude ignorant. Kitten's reasons for liking what she does is simply based on her own personal tastes, as it should be, without any objective standard which apparently declares that everyone must like Ikaruga. She does not like Ikaruga, there is no basis to fault her for not liking Ikaruga, and that's all. If she posted her list here is because she does want feedback, in one way or another, or at least wants to encourage some debate. I think her omission of Ikaruga is disturbing for anyone who considers themselves a fan of shmups. That's my opinion, i'm not aiming for being objective either. I think Ikaruga is a fantastic game that everyone should, if not like, at least respect in the same way they can respect a movie like The Godfather for the simple fact that is a well made piece of work. Again, i'm saying not liking, just recognize it's quality. Well, then I will reply with something of my own. First off, The Godfather isn't as great as people say because I think if something doesn't stand alone as a movie or game it makes it worse. So, since it has sequels it gets less good, especially since those sequels aren't as good. But then again, I've never seen the film, but I usually can't say things are as good as they could be if they're not stand-alone. As for Ikaruga: I'm a fan of shmups. I'm really bad at them though, I'll tell you that. But the fact that I can't beat the demo on XBLA for Ikaruga makes it practically impossible for it to be a favourite game. Plus, she doesn't really like bullethells as far as I know, and I don't always either (although they're way pretty :3) so that makes it trickier.
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Post by retr0gamer on Sept 12, 2009 12:29:08 GMT -5
Ikaruga looks like a bullethell shooter but it's quite different. Due to the colour changing mechanic a screen covered with bullets can open up huge swaths of sfe zones just by colour changing. I also didn't find it that tough, it's one of the few shmups I've beaten (with 5 credits in this case).
As for Raizing/8ing shooters the one to try out is Soukyugurentai but since you don't have a saturn it seems from your list you probably won't get a chance to play it.
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Post by Warchief Onyx on Sept 12, 2009 13:22:14 GMT -5
This is where your opinion became entirely irrelevant.
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Post by ryochan on Sept 12, 2009 14:29:56 GMT -5
retro: Although you may have a valid point in including something like Ikaruga on a list of games that are important to a certain genre (I really honestly don't know, since I've never played Ikaruga), it doesn't necessarily mean it has to be on a list of "My Favorite Games".
Using your example of The Godfather, although I would definitely say that I respect it for what it did and still does, if I were to write a list of favorite movies, I'm afraid it wouldn't be on there. Why? Again, not because I don't respect it, but because I really just don't like it.
I forget what Kitten said about Ikaruga in her stuff, but she may indeed be able to respect the game, but it doesn't mean she LIKES the game. Respect and like are two totally different words.
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Post by zzz on Sept 12, 2009 15:52:59 GMT -5
First I'll start by saying that you desperately need to play more arcade shooters! There is not one single console shoot-em-up that does anything better than one on the arcade. I can tell you love the genre, but it made me sad to see to many mediocre ones listed in place of ones that are so much better. I'd recommend playing more games by Toaplan, Irem, Cave/Raizing-- stuff like Giga Wing, Mars Matrix, X-Multiply, Image Fight, Fire Shark, Dogyuun, ESPRade, Dodonpachi, Mahou Daisakusen and others. And those are just the emulated ones. I don't mean to be presumptuous, but I got the sense you haven't played many of these according to your choices. I think you'll have some new favorite shooters if you check out MAME. Dude, I dig Cave, and I like most of those other shmups, but the old-school pre-danmaku stuff is just as good. Compile and Konami were every bit as great at making shooters as Cave, if not better. Wild Guns: Impressive translation of arcade-style to console, but there are already others like it on the arcade and are much more fun. Wait, what?
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