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Post by Deleted on Jan 10, 2011 13:25:40 GMT -5
No, you're right. I just don't want this to become a "this game sucks"-a-thon. Kusoge are fascinating because of their failed direction, poor programming and terrible ideas... and it's fun to explore those aspects of game design, and theorize about them. But as Kurt said, there are already plenty of AVGN clones out there -- and I'd be sad if this just became another excuse for people to say, "this game sucks, let me show you why!" -Tom If anything, the Japanese fans have built a subculture around kusoge...it would be interesting to feature some discussion of that in future articles; things like in the effects on popular culture in the Spelunker article. Of course, that's not always an option, but it would be nice. It's interesting to see how Japanese fans express different ranges of reactions from say, AVGN. I mean don't get me wrong, if you troll Nico Nico Douga or pixiv you'll see plenty of "negative" reactions to kusoge, but it's also nice to see stuff by someone who loves the games warts and all. I'll need to see if some form of it still exists, but I'd learned about Kusoge from an old Death Crimson fansite that was partially translated into English. The author had several pages talking about how the game's backstory was unrealistic, but also went into why he enjoyed the game and liked it better than House of the Dead. Speaking for myself, it can be pretty difficult to articulate why you like something that's generally seen as bad when you're a negative person to begin with. As a result I can appreciate when someone makes their discussion informative and presents an opinion other than "This game is like {insert type of animal} shit all over a {insert type of animal reproductive/excretory organ}." As an open question, anyone (Kurt?) planning on writing about the Famicom game 'Mystery of Atlantis?' There's an Ikki connection at the end (the main character's master turns out to be the player character Gonbe from Ikki...Arino made a big deal about it in the Atlantis episode of Gamecenter CX, and seemed to think it was funny).
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Post by kog3100edw on Jan 10, 2011 14:53:24 GMT -5
I think that's a good idea, the Japanese connections. It would be interesting at times to write up a game that maybe had a good rep here (or in Japan/Europe/wherever) and a kusoge rep somewhere else. Spelunker is a pretty good example.
We know other cultures emphasise different qualities than we do when they make something a hit, I'd be curious if some illustration can be made about culturally deciding a game is kusoge.
And I don't really mean why a game is NOT a hit. More why it literally goes above and beyond to become kusoge.
If this first article is any example, I think Kurt and the team have the right idea. This doesn't look to be a series just about game-hate opinions. It is about games that reach past expectations or logic to become exceptional in their badness.
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Post by Jave on Jan 10, 2011 16:37:16 GMT -5
As an open question, anyone (Kurt?) planning on writing about the Famicom game 'Mystery of Atlantis?' There's an Ikki connection at the end (the main character's master turns out to be the player character Gonbe from Ikki...Arino made a big deal about it in the Atlantis episode of Gamecenter CX, and seemed to think it was funny). Word from the rumour mill is that it was also potentially gonna come stateside as Super Pitfall 2. I kinda like that game, but I don't really understand what's going on in it well enough to do justice to it's write up, but I'd love to see it done.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2011 14:08:00 GMT -5
From what we discussed, those are not exactly taboo due to the different format, although I think that for the time being we'll mostly concentrate on titles that don't have full articles, yet (maybe with a few exceptions). I was wondering, is there any way to write a Weekly Kusoge article about a game, and then return to the game/series in depth later? Tower of Druaga is a game that hasn't been covered yet, and is a classic example of a kusoge: most people seem to hate it for one reason or another, yet it has a devoted fanbase in Japan and manages to score references to it in left and right. This is something I could turn around while my shit from Japan arrives on the other one (I'm waiting on some books for the big article). I know this is kind of a lot to ask since I haven't finished my first article, but I was planning on requesting to write about the Druaga series after that was finished, and I think it would be fun.
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Post by Discoalucard on Jan 12, 2011 14:36:01 GMT -5
Games that have a bad rep in Japan but good reps elsewhere = practically every Western game made. An article concentrating on differing receptions would just be way too broad, unless it was focused on a specific time period. Why is Monster Hunter one of the most popular things in Japan but makes only minor dents in the US? That is only one of dozens of questions to be answered. However, this is an interesting site which categorically votes on kusoge. This particular list is the running entries for Kusoge of the Year: www23.atwiki.jp/ksgmatome/pages/472.htmlA huge chunk are Japanese-only releases (and there's a special spot for eroge at the bottom) but some of the choices are interesting. Yeah, Muscle March is on there, expectedly. Only a few Western games - Metal of Honor Heroes 2 and Ghost Recon Advanced Warfighter 2 (were these particularly bad or anything? I enjoyed the first GRAW.) They hate Flight Plan, apparently, because both Dragon Shadow Spell and Poison Pink are listed. They're harsh on a number of RPGs, including Phantasy Star Universe (which won the "awards"), Dawn of Mana, Rogue Galaxy, Radiata Stories, Xenosaga II and Suikoden IV. Most of those games weren't well received over here, but I don't think you'll find much frothing hate for them, either. I'm sure Jave and wyrdwad would be heartbroken but Oppona is listed as well. There are also a handful of buggy arcade ports listed (Guilty Gear Accent Core XX, DDPDOK Black Label, Arcana Heart 2). To address some other stuff - Atlantis no Nazo is significant enough of a FC game that it's probably worth its own article. There was actually a ROM leaked not too long ago showing the localized "Super Pitfall 2" title along with some minor changes. Tower of Druaga would make an excellent article on its own, considering it had a number of spinoffs and an (apparently pretty good) anime. I had considered it once, but I can't stand slogging through the game, and at the time, 1up had a pretty good look at the series, though that was several years ago.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2011 15:30:58 GMT -5
I like the 1up article as well, and it's comprehensive to the point of almost invalidating an article here. If anything, I'd want to read more about "The Blue Crystal Rod", since there's next to nothing in English about it.
I guess what I find interesting about Druaga is that the fans tend to like it because of the characters and backstory more than anything else. I wish I'd saved the links because over the years I've read anecdotes from different blogs and such where each said almost the same thing: the authors only stuck it out because they had a crush on the character Ki, which is (pathetically) why I bothered playing through it. Then again, the amount of Namco promotional material she's been on, and sheer volume of hentai material she's featured in say about as much.
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Post by Jave on Jan 12, 2011 18:30:11 GMT -5
I don't know if this is the same thing that appeared in the 1-up feature, but Kevin Gifford was on one of the 8-4 podcasts to talk about the history of Druaga, particularly how the many secrets in that game got disseminated in Japanese arcades.
And I would definitely be very sad if Opoona was spoken poorly of, but at the same time, the localization alone deserves to be made fun of at least a little bit, like when the guy asks you "how are you doing today," and your possible answers are "yes" and "no." (it's something like that, anyway)
Also, if I'm gonna be making fun of games that are potentially someone's favourite something, it's probably best not to get too bitchy if it happens to me.
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Post by wyrdwad on Jan 12, 2011 18:53:04 GMT -5
Opoona's localization IS pretty bad. I recall one piece of art was translated correctly as "Octo Ballet" in one place, but translated VERY INCORRECTLY as "Taco Volley" in another.
Anyone who speaks basic Japanese should be headdesking right about now. (:
-Tom
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Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2011 20:00:11 GMT -5
I don't know if this is the same thing that appeared in the 1-up feature, but Kevin Gifford was on one of the 8-4 podcasts to talk about the history of Druaga, particularly how the many secrets in that game got disseminated in Japanese arcades. Awesome, I'll have to check that out! Aside from the "million monkeys on a million typewriters" method and people telling friends/strangers by word of mouth, it's amazing people were able to beat Druaga in the days before the internet....because seriously, what the fuck. The first third of the game is doable, but later levels are a nightmare to find the items. In my case I was pissed because I didn't pick up Namco Museum Volume 3 until the reprint, and it didn't come with the item cheat sheet like the original run did :/. I'm trying to find "sources" to back up these stories, but another thing that I've read at more than one place is that Druaga was one of the games that popularized and made game guidebooks more common. That, and Namco did stuff like send checklists for the items to arcades to give out as promotions. It's times like this that I wish I were fluent in Japanese to where I could carry a conversation or interview with people; I'd love to talk to someone about this kind of thing. (Sorry for the derailment)
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Post by Sketcz-1000 on Jan 13, 2011 5:24:18 GMT -5
I read an interesting-ish piece on NTSC-uk about Druaga which said it epitomises the kind of obtuse objectives videogames have become famous for in non-gamer circles. Released in 1984, would you say it predates all other games which featured illogical or counter-intuitive objectives? (Simon's Quest et al) My history is rusty here, but can we say Druaga set a precedent? Everyone bandies the word Metroidvania around, to describe a particular style of design, perhaps we should use Druagalike in some cases too? I can't stand playing the game - but I love reading about it. Joseph, perhaps try finding a fluent Japanese speaker to co-write a feature with you? EDIT: I don't believe this! I've tried this Druaga article in Firefox, Opera and IE, and in none of them does this page load correctly. The far right side is chopped off in all of them. Bah! www.1up.com/do/feature?cId=3135870
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Post by derboo on Jan 13, 2011 5:28:52 GMT -5
Released in 1984, would you say it predates all other games which featured illogical or counter-intuitive objectives? (Simon's Quest et al) My history is rusty here, but can we say Druaga set a precedent? www.hardcoregaming101.net/dunjonquest/dunjonquest2.htmScroll down to Hellfire Warrior and, even more fittingly, Danger in Drindisti. And then of course there's Ultima II.
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Post by Sketcz-1000 on Jan 13, 2011 5:54:22 GMT -5
Awesome - I knew I should have made a point of reading that when it first went up.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 13, 2011 8:27:47 GMT -5
I read an interesting-ish piece on NTSC-uk about Druaga which said it epitomises the kind of obtuse objectives videogames have become famous for in non-gamer circles. Released in 1984, would you say it predates all other games which featured illogical or counter-intuitive objectives? (Simon's Quest et al) My history is rusty here, but can we say Druaga set a precedent? Everyone bandies the word Metroidvania around, to describe a particular style of design, perhaps we should use Druagalike in some cases too? I can't stand playing the game - but I love reading about it. Joseph, perhaps try finding a fluent Japanese speaker to co-write a feature with you? EDIT: I don't believe this! I've tried this Druaga article in Firefox, Opera and IE, and in none of them does this page load correctly. The far right side is chopped off in all of them. Bah! www.1up.com/do/feature?cId=3135870I think that's a great term and I'm gonna start using it (Druagalike); it may not be the first of that type, but it's pretty much the epitome of that type of game. As far as precidents, I'm pretty sure it was the first action-rpg (it actually did use stats, problem was you couldn't see them); anyone know of any prior to Summer 1984? EDIT: Whoops...serves me right for not reading thoroughly enough...sorry about that, Derboo! :/.I also agree about the co-article. There are a couple of websites and blogs in particular that I've been reading through (slowly) but would like to contact, and it would be nice to get a sanity check on The Blue Crystal Rod. I'm not sure how difficult it would be, but I'd love to get in touch with Endo-sama (the creator of Druaga, who also did Xevious by himself), who to my understanding maintains an online presence and I know for a fact has done interviews with Japanese fansites---Anyone want to volunteer? I guess the other thing is that there are so many spinoffs, references, and homages that doing an article on the full series is pretty daunting... some of the games aren't even emulated or playable (as far as I know) like Tower of AON. However, at the moment I've got enough to go on to discuss why Druaga is a kusoge (for better and for worse), and also talk about the cultural impact and fan practices in Japan that helped make it still be regarded as a classic to others... Can I lay claim to this weekly kusoge article? Before I forget, Sketcz, you might want to go here if you haven't already: www.devimension.com/dvp_doc_database/dev_docu010.html...this is another reason why I'm hesitating on committing to a full article (and chose to write about Genpei at least for the time being). The layout's weird and it has dead pages, but there's some good info that aren't on any other English pages (also some about the Sandra/Xandra/Whirlo SFC game).
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Post by derboo on Jan 13, 2011 10:05:51 GMT -5
As far as precidents, I'm pretty sure it was the first action-rpg (it actually did use stats, problem was you couldn't see them); anyone know of any prior to Summer 1984? This is the last time I'm linking my own article here, I promise: www.hardcoregaming101.net/dunjonquest/dunjonquest3.htmScroll down to Gateway to Apshai.
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Post by Discoalucard on Jan 13, 2011 14:55:11 GMT -5
I'm not so sure about featuring Druaga in this series. It's one of those games that, yeah, it's pretty ridiculous and borderline unplayable if you don't know what you're doing, but it also has a lot of history surrounding it, and it would be better served as part of a larger article to make people understand why it's so significant in Japan, rather than mocking it.
Like, the same thing could be applied to Hydlide. Yes, it's routinely derided nowadays, but at the time when it was released in Japan, but it was something vaguely significant. Mocking Virtual Hydlide, on the other hand, would be totally deserving.
Anyway, for the games on the Druaga article that can't be covered, I'd recommend just digging up as much information as possible.
And that Druaga article from 1up was written in the early days of the site, it doesn't look like it's cooperating with the redesign.
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