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Post by ZenithianHero on Jul 12, 2020 7:02:53 GMT -5
I personal prefer when games prioritise having fun gameplay which the sonic adventure games don't. Or good programming so you aren't playing the most inanely boring cart racing section for 10 minutes then fall through the geometry on the final stretch and have to repeat the level. There's nothing good about the story either. Both games just seem really rushed especially the second. I just can't see how anyone could call them good games these days. Well, I enjoyed them. I never fell through the geometry on the racing sections either. Not like the stories have to be great, I just like the lore and story beats. For example I liked Gamma's chapter and it connected with Amy's. I like the parts about Tikal and Chaos. I like learning about Dr. Eggman's past with his relatives in Adventure 2. I want story concepts like that in future Sonic games. It doesn't have to mean dark shonen plots or does it have to jump the shark to accomplish that, I just want more background information of the world and characters.
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Post by Apollo Chungus on Jul 12, 2020 7:54:26 GMT -5
I think the appeal of the Adventure games has always been what they were trying to do - the first one especially. SA1 was originally released back in 1998, when the 3D platformer had only really been a mainstream genre for a couple of years and many developers were still figuring out how to approach the third dimension. And here it was boasting six playable characters with different playstyles, numerous levels that were designed to suit at least half of them, massive hub worlds, fully fleshed out story modes with unique bosses, many individual cutscenes and even the repeated ones getting slightly changes depending on the character's perspective (Roshomon-style as ZenithianHero said), a bunch of sub-game modes like racing and snowboarding, and even the Chao Garden with all the various sub-modes and whatnot for that mode.
While Adventure 2 wasn't trying to do so many things at once, it's still doing quite a fair bit. You've got two campaigns with uniquely designed stages (though repetitive in terms of structure or visual design), cutscenes with noticeably improved direction and animation, distinct musical styles for its six plyable characters (Knuckles' rap songs and Rogue's jazzy bossa nova tracks particularly come to mind), multi-player modes, more missions for each stage than the original, a faster framerate, and an expanded Chao Garden mode if you felt the original was a bit too minimalist.
It's legitimately insane to consider how much was packed into those games, back then and even now (though it's perhaps harder to appreciate considering how many games have gone all-in on taking dozens of hours to fully get through them). And deep down, I think there's plenty of appeal to the core mechanics. Sonic's stages have always been quite great, though I prefer the slower pace of SA1's levels to the rollercoaster rides that SA2 went for; Knuckles' gliding and climbing allows for a unique take on exploring 3D worlds that I haven't seen terribly often; the other characters tend to control quite well and are only really held back by their level designs more than anything.
However, I think it's fair to say that ambition is also somewhat responsible for the games' flaws. There's just so much going on that there wasn't the time to refine it all, and so you end up with a pair of games where some things are really good and other things are middling at best and irritating at worst. I feel Sonic Team was particularly aware of this for the first game: SA2 narrowed its number of playable character types down to three and chucked out the hub worlds. But it didn't work out as well as intended: there's always been a theory that Sonic, Knuckles and Eggman were going to be the only playable characters, and that Shadow, Rogue and Tails were hastily added in as clones of those respective characters - which would've required a restructuring of the game and more time spent on creating new animations, music tracks and the like.
Sonic Team's problem, during their glory days on the Mega Drive and all the way up to now, is simply not having enough time to polish and refine their ideas. The Sonic Adventure games are pretty ubiquitous examples of this: they're crazy ambitious games with a lot of fascinating ideas and great moments, but they're also buggy and undercooked in ways that betray a rushed development cycle. It's understandable if the bugs and problems are too much for you, but it's also understandable if you can still enjoy the games for what they are and what they're trying to do.
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Post by retr0gamer on Jul 12, 2020 8:42:48 GMT -5
I do remember marvelling at sonic adventure on release and loved that nights got a shout out in the pinball machine. However I got a dreamcast pretty late and bounced off the games as they weren't any fun at all. Ive gone back to beat them on the PC in the last few months and they really aren't good games at all. I mean if you compare them to contemporaries on the N64 the games there are so much better and just feel more solidly built unlike the jank of the SA games. Even on the PlayStation you had the likes of ape escape, crash and Spyro that are far better and feel better made. I'd happily go back and play all those games, even the worst stuff rare did at the end of the n64 but I only kept with the sonic adventure games out of curiosity and they were mercifully short. They really feel like bad fan made games... And that's a bit of an insult to what fans can do.
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Post by ZenithianHero on Jul 12, 2020 10:49:27 GMT -5
They really don't build them like that anymore. Later Sonic games are begging for the minigames and type of replay value Chao Garden offered. Sega hasn't even made a fully 3D platformer since 06 for that matter. And the ambition, scope and budget got lower and lower until we reached Forces.
I played my fair share of 3D platformers. Cannot say there are a lot that frustrated me to the point of hating them. Donkey Kong 64 was too overwhelming and tedious. Jak 2 which I will say I finished but never want to play ever again and hate what ND did to the series. Put me off dark/edgy games for a while. Which meant I passed up on the Prince of Persia sequels and of course Shadow the Hedgehog. Mario Sunshine had a great start but had some real dumb missions and hated Yoshi who vomited juice everywhere. But of course you cannot call a Mario game bad on the internet.
EDIT: Underrated platformers of this era? Bomberman Hero and Billy Hatcher (aka secret best 6th gen platformer).
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Post by Deleted on Jul 12, 2020 11:08:06 GMT -5
Mario Sunshine had a great start but had some real dumb missions and hated Yoshi who vomited juice everywhere. But of course you cannot call a Mario game bad on the internet. EDIT: Underrated platformers of this era? Bombermand Hero and Billy Hatcher aka secret best 6th gen platformer. I'm about as big a Nintendo guy as you can get (qualifier: I'm the one who bought Sushi Striker) but I don't think you'll get a huge disagreement on Sunshine. The level design can be needlessly frustrating, when you get knocked off a platform and have to backtrack to start a sequence over again. Also, not a 3d platformer but I'd argue New Super Mario Bros (DS) is a bad game too with powerups that seem like they were thought up at the eleventh hour. Also Billy Hatcher is fantastic, when it works as intended. It just needed more polish.
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Post by shelverton on Jul 12, 2020 15:24:41 GMT -5
Is the protagonist of the new Assassin’s Creed really called Eivor? Not to be that person but as someone who’s born and raised in Scandinavia I’ve never ever heard of a male Eivor. My grandma was actually called Eivor though. It’s a typical grandma name tbh. But yeah, maybe Ubisoft knows something I don’t?
Also, is it me or is it getting increasingly difficult to tell these openworld action games apart? Everything looks like everything else. If someone told me Ghost of Tsushima was a new AC I’d probably believe them. And Valhalla could be a brand new IP for all I know, or even a new actionRPG by CD Project.
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Post by mainpatr on Jul 12, 2020 15:34:01 GMT -5
Is the protagonist of the new Assassin’s Creed really called Eivor? Not to be that person but as someone who’s born and raised in Scandinavia I’ve never ever heard of a male Eivor. My grandma was actually called Eivor though. It’s a typical grandma name tbh. But yeah, maybe Ubisoft knows something I don’t? Also, is it me or is it getting increasingly difficult to tell these openworld action games apart? Everything looks like everything else. If someone told me Ghost of Tsushima was a new AC I’d probably believe them. And Valhalla could be a brand new IP for all I know, or even a new actionRPG by CD Project. Yep. AC:Valhalla? More like Middle Earth:Shadow of Ghosts of Valhalla. Every game they showed off doesn't fit with the currently political climate. We got games about revolutions,protests,and slaves. How can you go from Freedom Cry to Valhalla?
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Post by windfisch on Jul 12, 2020 16:34:30 GMT -5
Mario Sunshine had a great start but had some real dumb missions and hated Yoshi who vomited juice everywhere. But of course you cannot call a Mario game bad on the internet. EDIT: Underrated platformers of this era? Bomberman Hero and Billy Hatcher (aka secret best 6th gen platformer). Speaking for the internet: We forgive you!
Actually I agree for the most part: Sunshine can be great at times: Mario has a fun moveset and I dig the overall atmosphere - those water-effects still look gorgeous. But some of the later stages seem severly underdeveloped and thus are tedious and/or infuriating (oftentimes made worse by the semi-automatic camera).
Puking Yoshi is adorable, however. It's just a shame he's very much underutilized and also allergic to water, further limiting his usefulness.
EDIT (also): My pick for most underrated platformer would probably be Wario World (even though it's a technically more of a platformer/brawler hybrid).
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Post by retr0gamer on Jul 12, 2020 17:27:06 GMT -5
Is Billy Hatcher that highly regarded? I played it on the Gamecube and it never grabbed my attention.
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Post by ZenithianHero on Jul 12, 2020 18:07:51 GMT -5
Mario Sunshine had a great start but had some real dumb missions and hated Yoshi who vomited juice everywhere. But of course you cannot call a Mario game bad on the internet. EDIT: Underrated platformers of this era? Bomberman Hero and Billy Hatcher (aka secret best 6th gen platformer). Speaking for the internet: We forgive you!
Actually I agree for the most part: Sunshine can be great at times: Mario has a fun moveset and I dig the overall atmosphere - those water-effects still look gorgeous. But some of the later stages seem severly underdeveloped and thus are tedious and/or infuriating (oftentimes made worse by the semi-automatic camera).
Puking Yoshi is adorable, however. It's just a shame he's very much underutilized and also allergic to water, further limiting his usefulness. EDIT (also): My pick for most underrated platformer would probably be Wario World (even though it's a technically more of a platformer/brawler hybrid).
It's the combination of the water hazard and the juice puke. Yoshi was not fun to play as. Seemed like nearly every mission that required one was terrible too. Thankfully Galaxy 2's Yoshi was way WAY better and redeemed them. Mario 64 DS's Yoshi was OKAY but like the rest of the new characters, felt forced into the remake and couldn't even complete a whole lot of missions alone and had to seek hats. What a letdown. Wario World is cool. Didn't last as long as I liked but Treasure did a nice job considering they haven't made all that many 3D games. Is Billy Hatcher that highly regarded? I played it on the Gamecube and it never grabbed my attention. It was a cult hit, much like a few of other new IPs Sonic Team created. It's fondly remembered by Gamecube owners over the years and shown up as a cameo a few times. He is begging for a remaster or sequel.
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Post by jorpho on Jul 12, 2020 19:18:15 GMT -5
And in today's installment of weird bonus tracks I hadn't previously learned of:
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Post by Deleted on Jul 13, 2020 1:54:38 GMT -5
Is Billy Hatcher that highly regarded? I played it on the Gamecube and it never grabbed my attention. It was a cult hit, much like a few of other new IPs Sonic Team created. It's fondly remembered by Gamecube owners over the years and shown up as a cameo a few times. He is begging for a remaster or sequel. It does have it's frustrating elements that could have been pretty easily solved unfortunately. As per a sequel, we know how Sega likes to spam out their games nowadays in that Yakuza engine/setting and I just don't think Japan's criminal world is going to be intimidated by that chicken suit. I don't think Billy will return right now. For underrated platformers for that gen, I'm going to pick Donkey Kong Jungle Beat. Yes, it's a rhythm, score attack game, but it's also a platformer. I was highly addicted to perfecting the levels at one point. The game will bother the neighbours though.
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Post by retr0gamer on Jul 13, 2020 8:12:11 GMT -5
I only played it up to a bit past the first boss but while it seemed like a playable and solid platformer it wasn't doing anything special and probably got distracted and never went back to it.
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Post by windfisch on Jul 13, 2020 8:16:23 GMT -5
excelsiorI only hesitated to mention Jungle Beat, because the topic seemed to be 3D platformers. And yes, it may be one of the most underrated platformers of said generation. It's certainly one of my favorites. The concept of performing complex platforming mechanics with the bongo controllers is so absurd that it shouldn't work. And yet it does - amazingly well so. Only occasionally will some noise falsely registered as a clap or a button-press lacking pressure get in the way of a larger combo chain. And yeah, it's not a game to make friends with noise sensitive neighbours . I remember that some reviewers at the time dismissed it as being short (an unhealthy obsession with "game lenght", if you ask me), not realizing that replaying stages and going for the highest score by performing all sorts of crazy combos is one of this game's core strenghts. Ironically this concept was still widely accepted for shooters like Ikaruga, but not so much when it came to platformers.
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Post by kaoru on Jul 13, 2020 12:54:26 GMT -5
Is the protagonist of the new Assassin’s Creed really called Eivor? Not to be that person but as someone who’s born and raised in Scandinavia I’ve never ever heard of a male Eivor. My grandma was actually called Eivor though. It’s a typical grandma name tbh. But yeah, maybe Ubisoft knows something I don’t They use the same name for the male and female avatar. And the AC teams usually do at least decent amounts of research, as far as historical settings in games usually go anyways. So maybe it was a more gender neutral one back when?
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