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Post by Snarboo on Oct 17, 2014 0:46:59 GMT -5
This trend you mention arose mostly because of financial imperatives, not creative impulses. This may come as a shock to you, but arcade games were made artificially hard for the same reasons. In fact, a lot of early console games did this too. Those hard games you love are just as much a result of marketing as they were a conscious decision, but as I've said, I'd take more easily accessible games over hard, obtuse, or unforgiving ones if it means more people can enjoy them. Somehow I don't think you'd agree that it's fair for a kindergartener with a leg-powered Fisher-Price car to evaluate the features of a Tesla Model S. Ah yes, the classic car analogy! Because games are exactly like cars, and unskilled people who think a game is too hard are exactly like infants. Saying a game is too hard is perfectly valid criticism, regardless of skill. PS Children are just as capable of producing valid criticism, informed or otherwise, as anyone else. If my child told me a game was too hard, I wouldn't chastise them and tell them to quite complaining because " In my day!", I'd tell them to play something else and come back to the harder game. If it's still too hard, odds are good something might be wrong with the game, not the child. Games can be hard for all the wrong reasons, too, difficulty is not indicative of quality.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 17, 2014 0:50:42 GMT -5
Just admit that you're a grump with a superiority complex that's used to hide his massive inferiority complex, so we can all go on with the rest of our day.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 17, 2014 3:57:21 GMT -5
Did you actually just cite Mike Matei like he is in any way an authority? *laughs and cries*
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Post by nightdreamer on Oct 17, 2014 4:06:22 GMT -5
It would be one thing if he cited George Takei. I imagine he'd say 'Games today are so easy, oh myyyyy!'
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Post by Exhuminator on Oct 17, 2014 9:47:53 GMT -5
I searched the forum for Etrian Odyssey Untold related threads, and I came across this one: hg101.proboards.com/thread/10202?page=2There's actually a lot of relevance in that thread to this one. I find it interesting because the Montivagant guy was making some pretty good arguments IMO. Between that thread and this one though, it's pretty obvious that the subject of difficulty vs accessibility is always a touchy one.
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Post by The Great Klaid on Oct 17, 2014 10:24:55 GMT -5
Did you just say a high skill floor is good? Seriously? How is difficulty in even starting a game a good thing? I mean there is a reason I play Civilization or Total War more then most strategy games. I mean do you actually play games for fun?
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Post by Weasel on Oct 17, 2014 10:38:58 GMT -5
I guess Felix simply cannot live in a world where Becky Singlemom and her iPhone full of Candy Crush knockoffs is as much a "gamer" as he is.
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Post by moran on Oct 17, 2014 11:01:02 GMT -5
Somehow I think that felixm is starting these arguments as a weird condescending kind of humblebrag so that we could all recognise his 'vidyagaem skizll!' Its clearly backfired since its obvious that hes seen the white tanooki suit one too many times and has admitted that it took two whole months to complete one part in both OoT and MP 2. But on topic, these are games we are talking about. They're not tests. Mario games are built for all to enjoy, so if there's an item that helps people who are having trouble enjoy the whole game that's completely fine with me. I won't use them. I used warp zones, P-wings, whistles, Konami codes, you name it when I was a kid so that I could enjoy the games that I loved to play. I don't use them now just so I can get a little more mileage out of said games, but I would never put someone down for using them.
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Post by Garamoth on Oct 17, 2014 12:58:29 GMT -5
Hmm... I don't know what happened in this topic, but I'm kinda with felix on this one. I don't see what this has to do with being elitist, or a snob or whatever anyone else thinks about my gamer cred: it's between me and the game, or rather me and the developers. If the developers don't care enough about their game to craft a challenge and enforce it, why should I care?
Separate difficulty modes and cheat codes that affect score/unlocks are okay. Save anywhere, change difficulty on the fly, incessant hand-holding, loopholes and insta-win items even on "hard" are something else. If all of that is in there, where's the nudge to take the game to the next level? Where's the feeling that you're in good hands? Where's the developer silently telling you: "Okay, this is going to be really hard, but we think we've crafted this just right, you might even figure out some new tricks you wouldn't have learned otherwise!"
And this has everything to do with "fun". Not everything has to be crazy hard, but I have the most fun when I'm challenged. I don't rise up to every challenge (nor do I care to), but when I do those are my best experiences with videogames.
I get that the feeling for some is that accessiblity is a Faustian bargain: "If we don't water down the formula a bit" the market whispers in your ear, "why there won't be a game at all! Is that what you want?" I guess it's a reasonable compromise, but it doesn't matter how "accessible" something is if I don't want to "access" it anymore.
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Post by strizzuth on Oct 17, 2014 13:32:52 GMT -5
Seriously? Okay, I'd like to see you beat SH2 on its highest difficulty settings. All of them. Even the extra riddle level. No FAQs or googling allowed.
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Post by Weasel on Oct 17, 2014 13:37:25 GMT -5
Hmm... I don't know what happened in this topic, but I'm kinda with felix on this one. I don't see what this has to do with being elitist, or a snob or whatever anyone else thinks about my gamer cred: it's between me and the game, or rather me and the developers. If the developers don't care enough about their game to craft a challenge and enforce it, why should I care? Separate difficulty modes and cheat codes that affect score/unlocks are okay. Save anywhere, change difficulty on the fly, incessant hand-holding, loopholes and insta-win items even on "hard" are something else. If all of that is in there, where's the nudge to take the game to the next level? Where's the feeling that you're in good hands? Where's the developer silently telling you: "Okay, this is going to be really hard, but we think we've crafted this just right, you might even figure out some new tricks you wouldn't have learned otherwise!" And this has everything to do with "fun". Not everything has to be crazy hard, but I have the most fun when I'm challenged. I don't rise up to every challenge (nor do I care to), but when I do those are my best experiences with videogames. I get that the feeling for some is that accessiblity is a Faustian bargain: "If we don't water down the formula a bit" the market whispers in your ear, "why there won't be a game at all! Is that what you want?" I guess it's a reasonable compromise, but it doesn't matter how "accessible" something is if I don't want to "access" it anymore. Honestly, my problem isn't so much with the actual argument (there is a place for difficult games, just as there is a place for easy ones), so much as the way felix was arguing it. There is a lot to be said for politeness and general respect, and felix had little of either of those.
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Post by Joseph Joestar on Oct 17, 2014 13:42:19 GMT -5
The one thing along the lines of this topic that bothers me is how pissy a lot of people get over the completely optional "casual mode" in Fire Emblem: Awakening. I don't use it even though I'm the type that cheats and restarts a mission if I lose a unit, but it's nice to know that it's there, and it's a great feature for helping to get new players hooked on the series, and work their way up to the more demanding standard difficulty.
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Post by cambertian on Oct 17, 2014 13:47:43 GMT -5
Peh, casuals.
Real men MAKE their own games.
... In Assembly.
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Post by The Great Klaid on Oct 17, 2014 14:02:39 GMT -5
Hmm... I don't know what happened in this topic, but I'm kinda with felix on this one. I don't see what this has to do with being elitist, or a snob or whatever anyone else thinks about my gamer cred: it's between me and the game, or rather me and the developers. If the developers don't care enough about their game to craft a challenge and enforce it, why should I care? Separate difficulty modes and cheat codes that affect score/unlocks are okay. Save anywhere, change difficulty on the fly, incessant hand-holding, loopholes and insta-win items even on "hard" are something else. If all of that is in there, where's the nudge to take the game to the next level? Where's the feeling that you're in good hands? Where's the developer silently telling you: "Okay, this is going to be really hard, but we think we've crafted this just right, you might even figure out some new tricks you wouldn't have learned otherwise!" And this has everything to do with "fun". Not everything has to be crazy hard, but I have the most fun when I'm challenged. I don't rise up to every challenge (nor do I care to), but when I do those are my best experiences with videogames. I get that the feeling for some is that accessiblity is a Faustian bargain: "If we don't water down the formula a bit" the market whispers in your ear, "why there won't be a game at all! Is that what you want?" I guess it's a reasonable compromise, but it doesn't matter how "accessible" something is if I don't want to "access" it anymore. That's the kind of thing I've wanted to hear. You knw, an argument. It's not bad either. I still don't think I agree though. I still don't think they accept gamers to cheat themselves through. And personally, I often start a game on easy or normal. I'll cheese through it, just to experience it. If I really like it, I go back through and try it on hard. Really give the mechanics a fair shake. Most of the gamers around me are like that. Try it out as a whole package first, then see if it's worth really digging into. Giving me the option to skip stuff I'm not liking in my inaugural tour is pretty welcome personally.
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Post by Exhuminator on Oct 17, 2014 14:33:09 GMT -5
I appreciate when a game doesn't handle me with kid gloves and expects the best from me. I like beating hard games like that because I appreciate something more when I have to work harder for it. I do not want to be given an easy out, because I feel like the game is belittling me in doing so. It's like the game is saying I'm not good enough for its true challenges, so here are some training wheels. I don't want the training wheels. I'm going to keep getting on that bike until I either break my neck or I'm winning the Tour de France. But that's just the way I roll. I don't look down on other people who just want to have fun and not lose their mind fighting the same boss for the 10th time in a row.
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