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Post by Allie on Mar 6, 2015 12:29:10 GMT -5
Fighting games do seem like you have to make an honest attempt to learn them. And when you're learning the game at first the AI is invaluable. Because you sure as hell don't start with learning strategy. And AI on easyish is a really good way to figure out mechanics. You learn what works and what doesn't in practice. Especially if you're a complete noob. Really AI is the best way to figure out what everything does. When I try a new character I always take him through Arcade mode first to at least get a feel for the guy. Because getting bodied over and over again isn't fun. And you don't learn a damn thing. I'm not great or particularly really good, but I have fun playing online these days, so if that's the level you want to be at there ya go. Also, yeah Street Fighter 4 is a really good place to start. Not overly complicated. Good simple stuff. SF4 doesn't actually _explain_ anything to you, though. At no point does it explain what "FADC" is or how to do it (I don't even know what it is), it doesn't explain anything about "One-Frame Links" or where those link points are, etc. And when someone here does explain one-frame links, they explain it with terms like "plink" without even explaining what "plink" actually means.
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Post by Bobinator on Mar 6, 2015 13:32:53 GMT -5
Am I the only one who thinks the "one-frame link" school of thought that SF and KoF generally fall into is the least unituitive thing? I guess I just gel with fighting games where the timing is generally looser, I dunno.
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Post by The Great Klaid on Mar 6, 2015 17:52:37 GMT -5
Fighting games do seem like you have to make an honest attempt to learn them. And when you're learning the game at first the AI is invaluable. Because you sure as hell don't start with learning strategy. And AI on easyish is a really good way to figure out mechanics. You learn what works and what doesn't in practice. Especially if you're a complete noob. Really AI is the best way to figure out what everything does. When I try a new character I always take him through Arcade mode first to at least get a feel for the guy. Because getting bodied over and over again isn't fun. And you don't learn a damn thing. I'm not great or particularly really good, but I have fun playing online these days, so if that's the level you want to be at there ya go. Also, yeah Street Fighter 4 is a really good place to start. Not overly complicated. Good simple stuff. SF4 doesn't actually _explain_ anything to you, though. At no point does it explain what "FADC" is or how to do it (I don't even know what it is), it doesn't explain anything about "One-Frame Links" or where those link points are, etc. And when someone here does explain one-frame links, they explain it with terms like "plink" without even explaining what "plink" actually means. I don't really understand them either. Well I do, but I can't perform them. Like I said, I do well enough. SF4 has a lot too it, but you can ignore a ton of it unless if you are in to the high end top tier stuff.
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Post by retr0gamer on Mar 6, 2015 17:56:02 GMT -5
SF4 doesn't actually _explain_ anything to you, though. At no point does it explain what "FADC" is or how to do it (I don't even know what it is), it doesn't explain anything about "One-Frame Links" or where those link points are, etc. And when someone here does explain one-frame links, they explain it with terms like "plink" without even explaining what "plink" actually means. Well remember those David Sirlin videos I linked to? Well if you actually watched the full series it would be explained there (where you piano the three input buttons so you get 6 chances of the input being recognised). 1 frame links are pretty easy to understand, basically in a combo you have 1 frame or 1/60 th of a second to press the next button or else the combo won't continue into the next move. The timing sounds insane because it is and nobody, not even the pros will attempt combos with 1 frame links because they are next to impossible. 3 frames is usually the very limit for consistency for the best of the best pros. So just forget about 1 frame links basically and just use combos that are far easier to pull off consistently. FADC is basically the last thing you learn in SF4 and it is explained in tutorials. The advice I was given to getting that technique down was practice non stop in training mode for a week. It's very difficult to pull off and really should be the last thing you learn after all the basics. I'd even recommend ignoring it and playing a character that doesn't need FADC in their strategy if you find it too hard.
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Post by Aoi on Mar 6, 2015 22:30:41 GMT -5
SFIV does explain FADC in the manual. Essentially you can cancel any ground move into a focus attack by pressing/holding MP+MK. You can also cancel the focus attack itself by dashing forward or backward (hence the name Focus Attack Dash Cancel). By putting the two together, you can make any move "safe" or interrupted to form a new combo. Like Ryu's Shoryuken can FADC into his Ultra, or it can be FADC on their block so he can save himself from being open to a huge combo. They're not really explained beyond what I mentioned, in the manual, because it was unknown what we'd do with them.
Links aren't really a combo system or mechanic purposely built into the game... they're an outcome of design, and very complicated. Every offensive action has 3 forms of animation: start-up frames->active frames->recovery frames. Every move also has animation frames given to the opponent: hit-stun frames (reeling from the hit) and block-stun frames (same, but shorter). When you hit hard punch, Ryu winds up->hits->then returns to normal while the opponent is given X amount of reeling frames from the punch's active frames. Sooo... 5 frames to start up, 3 active frames of striking, and 2 frames of recovery which provide say 8 frames of hit-stun animation on an opponent. So you wind up, hit them, then you begin counting down: 8f on them, 2f for your recovery, @6f on them you're now at 0f, back to normal stance, you link another punch exactly here, it begins the 5f startup again so they're now at 1f by the time you count off 5f of startup animation, it hits, they're returned to 8frames of hit-stun.
The difference between your start-up frames and the hit-stun they're left in at that point is the X frame link you must achieve. If the difference is 1 frame, you must press the button within one frame to land it. If it has a lot of hit-stun but a fast start-up, you might give a difference of 4 frames to press the button. If the outcome is less than 0 frames, it's impossible to combo.
Most games also have chain combos, which cancel the recovery frames of a move, making the system vastly easier. You attack, if it hits you cancel straight into another hit without worrying about timing. SF does not accept special moves out of a chain combo(KoF does), so you must always exit a chain into a link. So, Ryu's bnb of cr.LP, cr.LP, cr.MKxxFireball is actually LP->LP chain, LP->MK link, and MK->Fireball cancel.You'll find just about every character uses a chain to link combo, if not pure link combos.
SFIV's system also allowed an exploit called Plinking to make linking even easier. Basically the game (to adapt to controllers) forces any heavier attack to take priority when multiple buttons are pressed together. So, when you hit LP+MP, the game will ALWAYS register this as MP. If MP is the link button you need, you can roll your fingers on the buttons to input MP, LP+MP. If you roll them fast enough, you will register MP twice, giving you twice the opportunity to hit that 1/60th of a second. It's an extremely advance exploit in an already advanced link... so... I wouldn't recommend worrying about it o.o
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Post by akumajobelmont on Mar 6, 2015 22:41:13 GMT -5
Virtua Fighter Kids on the Saturn is a great gateway into Virtua Fighter, if you're inclined to head down that road! It doesn't have the best rep, but meh, I've always found it fun. It's basically Virtua Fighter with big-heads, and it's really newbie friendly
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Post by keobas on Mar 8, 2015 4:01:00 GMT -5
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Post by Allie on Mar 10, 2015 10:10:16 GMT -5
I don't know. There's still this assumption that bad players will intuitively pick up "standard" mechanics just from playing or watching if they just do it long enough.
And no, I'm not even talking combos here. I'm not going to start listing things, because that tends to make people mistakenly I assume that I know what they actually are, and am not just rattling them off because I see them spoken about in other places as being important.
And I just think that since experienced/skilled players have been at it for so long that they take it for granted, they tend to just mock/dismiss the idea of tutorials (not just people uploading youtube videos, because that takes away a layer of real-time feedback that could be in the game itself) that teach people those standards, and make them execute them until they understand what they are, how they work, and when they are used.
Basically, instead of the old-style "mission" or "tutorial" modes, have a "situation" mode with specific setups, have the game explain the "when" and "why" of what it wants you to learn, and have the AI programmed to take action where you have to do it to move on.
Force a player to jump at the AI and eat anti-airs, then put the player in the position of having to do it so maybe they "get it". Then do that again with things like spacing, zoning, and other "standard" things a bad player needs to know, but may not intuitively pick up just from getting their ass kicked online over and over again, without an explanation.
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Post by Vokkan on Mar 10, 2015 21:15:34 GMT -5
For 2D fighters: Stop jumping Learn anti-airing Learn combos Learn mixups Learn footsies Learn about frameadvantage and what's safe/punishable (for 3D fighters it's just combos, mixups and frameadvantage) Lol. Fantastic help. Really smashing advice. I meant to illustrate that playing fighting games isn't just a big jungle, but made up of separate aspects. Apsects a beginner may research on his own for whatever game. Now, 'Stop jumping', 'Learn anti-airing' and 'Learn footsies' could all be lumped together into something like 'the Neutral game'; but jumping, when not very calculated, is such a cop-out that it's basically giving up on playing the game and tossing a coin instead, so it can't be overstated to a beginner: stop jumping! And when you're learning the game at first the AI is invaluable. Because you sure as hell don't start with learning strategy. And AI on easyish is a really good way to figure out mechanics. You learn what works and what doesn't in practice. Especially if you're a complete noob. Really AI is the best way to figure out what everything does. When I try a new character I always take him through Arcade mode first to at least get a feel for the guy. Because getting bodied over and over again isn't fun. And you don't learn a damn thing. I'm not great or particularly really good, but I have fun playing online these days, so if that's the level you want to be at there ya go. I dislike all single player modes because 'beating the AI' and 'playing properly' is often unrelated, and I feel it's something that keeps casual players from evolving rather than helping any. Still, I fight the AI for practice myself, but only in Training Mode where there's no rounds to win. Just me and a stupid opponent with good reflexes, for me to practice my reflexes/combos/hitconfirms/zoning on.
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Post by Bobinator on Mar 10, 2015 21:25:47 GMT -5
I don't think it's generally a good idea to learn from the AI, when it comes to fighting games. I mean, for figuring out the basics, like the controls, game-specific mechanics, and how your moves work, sure. The problem is that a computer opponent can do things and play in a way a human generally can't, so you might end up picking up some bad habits. I mean, it gets better the more recent the game is, of course, but I'd just call that a general rule of thumb.
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Post by Aoi on Mar 11, 2015 3:50:32 GMT -5
SFII AI = "Oh look, Guile's walking forward, I can jump!" *flash kicked* =___=
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Post by SonnieSlim1 on Mar 11, 2015 13:59:20 GMT -5
New here.
I imagine the Xbox One fighting community isn't very large but if you have an XONE Killer Instinct has an excellent Dojo that teaches you the basics and advanced fighting mechanics. It even has hit box display. It is a pretty substantial training simulation.
Example below: At around 7 minutes is when the hit box display comes on.
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Post by Neo Rasa on Mar 20, 2015 0:38:21 GMT -5
I don't know. There's still this assumption that bad players will intuitively pick up "standard" mechanics just from playing or watching if they just do it long enough. And no, I'm not even talking combos here. I'm not going to start listing things, because that tends to make people mistakenly I assume that I know what they actually are, and am not just rattling them off because I see them spoken about in other places as being important. And I just think that since experienced/skilled players have been at it for so long that they take it for granted, they tend to just mock/dismiss the idea of tutorials (not just people uploading youtube videos, because that takes away a layer of real-time feedback that could be in the game itself) that teach people those standards, and make them execute them until they understand what they are, how they work, and when they are used. Basically, instead of the old-style "mission" or "tutorial" modes, have a "situation" mode with specific setups, have the game explain the "when" and "why" of what it wants you to learn, and have the AI programmed to take action where you have to do it to move on. Force a player to jump at the AI and eat anti-airs, then put the player in the position of having to do it so maybe they "get it". Then do that again with things like spacing, zoning, and other "standard" things a bad player needs to know, but may not intuitively pick up just from getting their ass kicked online over and over again, without an explanation. Weirdly, MK Deadly Alliance of all games does this when you play through its Konquest mode. It goes through every character and every technique they can do talking about the benefits and situations for each.
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Post by Allie on Mar 20, 2015 5:33:08 GMT -5
I don't know. There's still this assumption that bad players will intuitively pick up "standard" mechanics just from playing or watching if they just do it long enough. And no, I'm not even talking combos here. I'm not going to start listing things, because that tends to make people mistakenly I assume that I know what they actually are, and am not just rattling them off because I see them spoken about in other places as being important. And I just think that since experienced/skilled players have been at it for so long that they take it for granted, they tend to just mock/dismiss the idea of tutorials (not just people uploading youtube videos, because that takes away a layer of real-time feedback that could be in the game itself) that teach people those standards, and make them execute them until they understand what they are, how they work, and when they are used. Basically, instead of the old-style "mission" or "tutorial" modes, have a "situation" mode with specific setups, have the game explain the "when" and "why" of what it wants you to learn, and have the AI programmed to take action where you have to do it to move on. Force a player to jump at the AI and eat anti-airs, then put the player in the position of having to do it so maybe they "get it". Then do that again with things like spacing, zoning, and other "standard" things a bad player needs to know, but may not intuitively pick up just from getting their ass kicked online over and over again, without an explanation. Weirdly, MK Deadly Alliance of all games does this when you play through its Konquest mode. It goes through every character and every technique they can do talking about the benefits and situations for each. From what I remember, MKDA still doesn't explain and make you practice basic "how to not suck at a tournament fighter" things like spacing, frame recognition, zoning and how to get around it, all of that. Of course, MKDA also has weird mechanics, so...
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Post by Aoi on Mar 20, 2015 7:39:44 GMT -5
Polaris:"I don't know. There's still this assumption that bad players will intuitively pick up "standard" mechanics just from playing or watching if they just do it long enough."
I mean... I really hate to be one of those experienced players that dismiss this, but you do! There are thousands and thousands of players that learned all these by simply playing without in-game tutorials. It just takes dedication and practice, and you naturally learn these things. I'm telling you from experience. Throughout your journey, you just pick up certain skills along the way, when the time is right. I completely understand how cynical and impossible that sounds compared to a proper tutorial, but it's the way it's worked for many people for many years. Have a little faith in your ability to naturally learn these things.
So many advanced techniques are so dependent on your character, their character, where either of you are standing, meter, the game mechanics, the clock, rounds won, there's so much variation that it's really hard to say what's completely right or wrong.
With all my experience, if I designed a simple tutorial on how to get around a fireball: *throws fireball* -Check the speed of it, they have 3 possible speeds to mix you up (4 if they use meter) -If you're outside their uppercut range, you can jump it... but they may have a kara (read:glitch) uppercut that sends them forward and puts you into range! -You can block it, but you'll get pushed into the corner, and the process will repeat. -You can focus/parry through it, but then they may have a command normal to punish that dash in after the focus. -You can use meter to EX through it on reaction, if your character allows it, and you have meter, and everything aligns perfectly. -You can negate it with your own move, but they may put you in a pattern of this and jump kick you in the face for it.
I mean... it's extremely complicated getting around 1 fireball. There's no clear cut answer aside from specific situation experience. In time, I know what to do against each character's fireball from any given range, but I'm still playing a guessing game with my opponent.
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