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Post by GamerL on Oct 28, 2018 5:10:35 GMT -5
Sarkeesian is simply not a good critic of this stuff, her criticisms tend to be very surface level and shallow, ignoring any context or nuance and typical of the "sexy = sexist" attitude that goes around today that I can't even begin to understand.
Her most ridiculous moment for me was that hilarious Arkham City critique, where it boiled down to Catwoman wears a catsuit, that's bad and Batman wears a cape so you can't see his butt.
Does she not realize these are 80 year old characters that have always been depicted this way? Pray tell, how else was Rocksteady supposed to depict them? And the "I can't see Batman's butt" thing, that probably stems more from technical limitations of the cloth physics, does she think they did it.... on purpose? "Oh, can't let players ever see Batman's butt, that's gay", is she for real?
At any rate you can see Batman's butt in the later Arkham Knight, problem solved? Catwoman still wears a catsuit though, oh no!
Oh boy, criticizing Anita Sarkeesian? We're getting into it now, is that a thing we can do? It should go without saying that I don't advocate anyone sending her online harassment, it's deeply bizarre to me that was such a problem, I would never in a million years think of sending someone a threatening message over a disagreement of opinion, but I've never understood online trolls.
That doesn't make her beyond disagreement or reproach though, I've literally had people tell me on other websites that disagreeing with Anita Sarkeesian in the slightest way means I'm a Gamergater, wowwwwwwwwww (I wish I was making that up but I'm not)
But for real, I don't feel like arguing over every cultural controversy of the last several years point by point, this is a topic I avoid, you'll notice I didn't make this thread or bring the Senran Kagura thing up.
But when these issues comes up I'm not gonna shy away from stating my opinion, that's a thing I can do here, right?
Just trying to level with everyone, I know how damn toxic online discourse these days is, including here a couple of years ago, just want to avoid any big blowups.
I've said just about all I can really say on this issue, to sum it all up in a tl;dr way, we live in an age in which content creators are motivated not by what the audience wants but their own political agendas, this often results in subbar content, whether it's in games themselves or modern gaming journalism or consumer unfriendly decisions like what Sony is up to.
This is indicative of a larger problem of modern culture absolutely overdosing on politics, for me the problem doesn't lie in the specifics of the politics, whether it's right or left wing, but the fact that it's having a negative impact on modern culture and entertainment.
All taking sex appeal out of games in the name of fighting for feminism does is make games a less fun hobby, it's just crap, a bad path people have gone down, not the right tactic.
I haven't played Nier Automata yet but I already love 2B as just a character design, she's cool, she's sexy, there's nothing wrong with it, that's exactly what I don't want to see disappear from games.
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Post by ZenithianHero on Oct 28, 2018 10:56:06 GMT -5
Hold up, the damsel in distress plot was under fire but how did Nintendo get away with this in their games still? Did people complain about it for Mario Odyssey that Bowser kidnapped and force a marriage on Peach?
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Post by wyrdwad on Oct 28, 2018 11:53:34 GMT -5
Hold up, the damsel in distress plot was under fire but how did Nintendo get away with this in their games still? Did people complain about it for Mario Odyssey that Bowser kidnapped and force a marriage on Peach? To be honest, I'm kind of shocked they didn't -- that I heard about, anyway. I sometimes wonder if Nintendo gets a free pass simply for being Nintendo. Though there are other examples as well of games that I could've sworn would get criticized for their depictions of women, yet they never did -- every Shantae game, for example (for damsel in distress and objectification in some cases, but also for the general hypersexualization of women throughout the series). I'm really glad they didn't, since I think the Shantae games are all exceptional and take a very charming approach in their depiction of sexiness, but I'm also kind of shocked that they've never drawn any ire (that I've seen) -- I suppose the fact that the character and story were partially created by a woman has something to do with that, though that certainly didn't stop Bayonetta from drawing considerable criticism. So, yeah. In the interest of not painting a complete "everything is bleak" picture, I will say that there are some very notable exceptions to this perceived rule. -Tom |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 28, 2018 13:38:03 GMT -5
Trying to explain basic human empathy with you two is legitimately exhausting. You're so laser-focused on people telling you you're wrong that you can't stop to contemplate that your worldview might honestly be bigoted. It's understandable to an extent; no one wants to think of themselves as being bigots, but that's what it is.
I love this site and most of the people on it, but I just can't post here anymore as long as you two are around.
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Post by wyrdwad on Oct 28, 2018 14:21:42 GMT -5
Dude. I could just as easily make the same claim of you. But I'm not going to, because ultimately, what we have is simply a differing worldview from one another. I respect your viewpoint, and ask only that you respect mine as well. You certainly don't have to agree with it. I don't typically talk about this on here, either -- I mean, when I do, it seems to get a lot of attention, but I only ever discuss it when it's brought up by someone else, never bringing it up myself and never spilling it over into other threads. So I hope you aren't seriously saying you're leaving HG101 because of me, as that would be rather asinine. If anything, I'd say just leave this thread! I think you'll agree that in other topics, the worst you can really say about me is that I talk about MSX way too much.  -Tom |
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Post by GamerL on Oct 28, 2018 17:58:08 GMT -5
Hold up, the damsel in distress plot was under fire but how did Nintendo get away with this in their games still? Did people complain about it for Mario Odyssey that Bowser kidnapped and force a marriage on Peach? The whole thing is subverted at the end of the game in a very funny way, so that may be why it didn't get any flak. Trying to explain basic human empathy with you two is legitimately exhausting. You're so laser-focused on people telling you you're wrong that you can't stop to contemplate that your worldview might honestly be bigoted. It's understandable to an extent; no one wants to think of themselves as being bigots, but that's what it is. I love this site and most of the people on it, but I just can't post here anymore as long as you two are around. The fact that you think this is a matter of "basic human empathy" and I'm a bigot for simply disagreeing with the conventional attitudes of today is the fundamental problem, melodramatic much? The death of nuance in modern culture has been a sad sight to see. And if you're serious about leaving I think that would be a shame, I appreciate your input here and I would be happy to never say another word on this matter because I feel this topic has been exhausted. But if you're the kind of person who just can't handle others having a different opinion than you, as many are these days, then I can't really help you, not everyone thinks the same, that's just life. |
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Post by X-pert74 on Oct 28, 2018 18:52:58 GMT -5
But for real, I don't feel like arguing over every cultural controversy of the last several years point by point, this is a topic I avoid, you'll notice I didn't make this thread or bring the Senran Kagura thing up. You literally bumped this thread twice, after periods of inactivity, because you wanted to continue to rant. The majority of posts that I've ever seen you make on this entire forum, have been dedicated to multi-paragraph rants against modern culture or politics or feminism. You spend an unhealthy amount of time pining for your rose-tinted perception of how great the 2000s supposedly were. You are a broken record. (and honestly, the fact you continue to blame so much on Anita Sarkeesian or feminism in general, is a sign that you may be a misogynist. Most of what you say sounds like it could be ripped straight from Gamergate's talking points. It honestly makes me uncomfortable, how much you rant about them) |
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Post by GamerL on Oct 28, 2018 19:53:33 GMT -5
I haven't said almost anything about this topic in like two years (you yourself started this thread, remember)
And why does criticizing Anita Sarkeesian or feminism make me a misogynist? Why is it such an either/or situation? I just don't understand why modern culture works this way, there's no middle ground?
Nothing is beyond reproach or criticism and criticizing something doesn't mean you are 100% against it, if I criticize Anita Sarkeesian it doesn't mean I hate her guts, if I criticize certain aspects of how modern feminism works, that doesn't mean I'm 100% against feminism as a whole (my main issue is with sex-negative feminism, which the schism between sex-negative and sex-positive feminism has been a debate for decades within the feminist community, do people not understand that feminism is not a monolithic worldview where everyone thinks the same?)
The name of the game in modern culture is simplistic, black and white, good guys vs bad guys morality, but that's just not reality, the world is a more complicated place than that.
I'm sorry, you'll have to forgive me I guess, I'll never be a parrot that just says what I think is expected to be said, that's just not how my mind works, I believe in asking questions, debates, discussions, people sharing ideas and coming to new understandings, that's how progress is made and conflict is resolved, if one side believes they have the only "correct" opinion and the other side shouldn't even have a voice, well, that's a recipe for nothing but conflict from now until the heat death of the universe, this is what people want?
If debate and discussion over issues like this is not what we want here, then I respect that and I'll shut up about it, we can agree to disagree and leave it at that.
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Post by edmonddantes on Oct 28, 2018 23:09:03 GMT -5
I frankly hate this modern attitude that someone can't have a view or opinion on something, or can't understand something if they're the wrong race or gender, even Barack Obama himself has disagreed with this, saying and I quote "Democracy demands that we're able also to get inside the reality of people who are different than us, so we can understand their point of view. Maybe we can change their minds, but maybe they'll change ours.” What makes it even funnier is that this attitude seems to immediately disappear the minute a person sides with feminism or whatever the issue is--nobody ever tells Hbomberguy or Jason X themselves that their feelings are moot because they're white males. For that matter, even people who are of the proper race or gender will sometimes be told they don't count if they don't side with the "right" opinion. That's what gave rise to the #NotYourShield movement. |
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Post by toei on Oct 28, 2018 23:28:40 GMT -5
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Post by GamerL on Oct 28, 2018 23:45:34 GMT -5
It's just a mean spirited tactic to try to shut someone up, I'm always disappointed when I see people use it.
It also doesn't make much sense either with how Jason X says this is a matter of "basic human empathy" but evidently I can't emphasize with women since I'm male? Which one is it?
People have got to start raising the bar on discussions over these issues, wanting to say some can't have a say at all is the wrong method, it's unfair the way people will pretty viciously attack people now over a difference of opinion and the fact that is just accepted as the way it goes now is pretty damn bizarre to me.
I've tried to be as even handed, fair and polite in expressing my views as I can be, but nope, gotta go in with the ad hominem attacks.
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Post by toei on Oct 28, 2018 23:50:08 GMT -5
The problem is when the people who aren't directly concerned pretend to know better than those who are, without taking the time to listen to them (unless they're one of the rare few who agree with them - which is why Candace Owens is popular). I wouldn't say you're not allowed to have an opinion, but some of the people who posted in this thread would benefit from listening more and talking / typing less, even if that's harder to do.
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Post by Weasel on Oct 29, 2018 0:14:06 GMT -5
We've somehow gone from criticizing the decision, to criticizing the game, to criticizing the market, to criticizing each other for even posting. I'm not even going to bother with any detailed moderator action, but I am going to close the thread before we finally cross that threshold between "criticizing each other" and "actively attacking each other."
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