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Post by Digitalnametag on Oct 30, 2020 12:22:33 GMT -5
Over the last couple days I dabbled with Genshin Impact. It is a game that blatantly rips off the exploration mechanics of Breath of the Wild whilst adding a generic anime aesthetic. You have a party of four characters that have one of several different elements and they have about three different moves. To it's credit the game does give you a free character of each element and this is apparently enough to make it through the story content. The game is decent fun and if it was a retail release game I would have happily paid for it. The game is mostly single player with each player in their own world unless doing a multiplayer instance. For the record I played the game around 15 hours and spent no money on it. I have since deleted the game.
The problem I have is how incredibly predatory the Gacha mechanics are. And to be fair I'm sure most Gacha games have similar mechanics. I'm just picking on the one I most recently played.
The game has a starter quest that rewards you for signing in every day for a week. Why? Because doing something everyday is habit forming and the longer you play the more likely you are to spend money. There are about a dozen different resource types in the game with odd conversion rates. This clearly seems designed to confuse people into not equating the actual cost of real world money and in game currency. For instance one Gacha pull is one of two different 'Fate' which is 160 'Primogems' which equates to around $2 USD.
Speaking of let us talk about the rates on Gacha pulls. Characters and high level weapons are the goals here. You are guaranteed a 4* something every ten pulls (either a character or weapon depending on the banner) and a 5* every ninety. 4* have a 5.1% pull rate and 5* have a .6%. So to get a guaranteed 5* you would have to spend $180 USD. A character banner helps increase the chance of getting a character you want with a 50% rate for the character if you get a 5* and are guaranteed to get the banner character at 180 pulls. But wait! Characters have a skill tree that requires drawing six duplicates of that character to unlock. How much money would you have to spend to fully unlock a 5* characters? Guh. On that point there are only two classes of character 4* and 5*. Gotta follow those Gacha naming conventions. Makes you feel good to say you pulled a 5* even if there are only two types.
Genshin Impact has made a ridiculous amount of money in the short frame of time it has been out. Being free to download incentivizes people to giving it a shot and then those susceptible to addiction spend and spend in the hopes of that elusive Gacha pull. If this was a standard $60 release most people would not give the time of day. Xenoblade 2 has similar Gacha mechanics without the real world cost and Skylanders physically monetized characters and items but at least you owned these. You own nothing with Genshin Impact. You can spend $1000s and when the servers go off you have nothing. I'm generally not a fan of imposing restrictions on game creation but I do feel these Gacha style games are a form of gambling and would like to see much harsher laws in place. These style of games are stymieing design. Why make something interesting when you can monetize a property by turning it into a Gacha?
Anyway that is my rant. Curious to see what other people think of the genre or any counter-arguments they may have.
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Post by chronotigger65 on Oct 30, 2020 14:59:38 GMT -5
Is gacha mechanics also called microtranactions or is it something else?
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Post by kaoru on Oct 30, 2020 15:35:01 GMT -5
It's more specific. Gacha means you have a random draw at things, like with capsule toy machines. A more common Western name would probably be lootboxes. It's a lottery. You buy being allowed to draw from the pool, but what you get is random. For example take Fire Emblem Heroes, there is a character in the roster you really want. You can't just outright buy them. You have to buy tries and the capsule machine until you get lucky enough that the ball with the character you wanted rolls out.
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Post by Digitalnametag on Oct 30, 2020 17:10:38 GMT -5
Yup. The term describes random loot micro transactions. Way worse than the typical skin or costume DLC. Guess I shouldn’t assume everyone is familiar with the term Gacha.
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Post by chronotigger65 on Oct 30, 2020 18:23:51 GMT -5
It's more specific. Gacha means you have a random draw at things, like with capsule toy machines. A more common Western name would probably be lootboxes. It's a lottery. You buy being allowed to draw from the pool, but what you get is random. For example take Fire Emblem Heroes, there is a character in the roster you really want. You can't just outright buy them. You have to buy tries and the capsule machine until you get lucky enough that the ball with the character you wanted rolls out. Yeah. Back in the past being a kid those machines were something I enjoyed in the past. It sucked when you didn't get the thing you wanted and your parents refused to pay more money for another chance. Maybe another thing that could be considered gacha in the past, the toy or prize in cereal boxes. Was a major selling point for food companies. Shame we don't have those anymore for some reason. (Did the FDA have something to do with it?) Now I look at us today as parents and there's no problems of going through the cereal aisle with your kids going crazy for that stuff. I asked my brother and his wife if they have problems with this and they said no but have problems with the toy aisle instead at a store. |
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Post by 🧀Son of Suzy Creamcheese🧀 on Oct 30, 2020 18:55:22 GMT -5
I think pretty much everyone would agree with you. It's a given that without exception any game with gacha mechanics/lootboxes would be better off without them. It's also a given that any game that has these mechanics only has them because whatever company is publishing the given game believes it will get them more money. So a game has to offer something really special to be still worth playing. And I can't think of that being the case with a single game. In other words, a game with gacha/lootbox mechanics is an instant avoid for me. I don't buy any in-game DLC that isn't permanent, period. I didn't know Genshin Impact was gacha game, honestly. A BotW clone sounds like one of the worst possible games to put gacha stuff in. The dutch gambling authority recently more or less stated the lootboxes in Fifa are against the law, but that only makes us and the Belgians so far, I believe. I think if EA doesn't change their ways, the maximum fine is not enough to make them lose money on it, and these two markets are small enough that EA could probably just ignore them altogether anyway. We really need some bigger countries to step up and show this shit's wrong. But then companies would find some different ways to screw us over, or just rely more on already existing other ways. I haven't had any games I was really looking forward to playing ruined by it yet, but there's surely going to be a day where that happens. Is gacha mechanics also called microtranactions or is it something else? Microtransactions? Pfff...that's old news. There's brand new and better ways to rob people of their money these days. |
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Post by dsparil on Oct 31, 2020 7:16:50 GMT -5
Cereal still occasionally comes with a prize. I got one recently in a box of Cinnamon Toast Crunch. It was outside the bag though. Related to this topic is that the prize did in fact work on a gacha / blind box system where you have a possibility of one of six General Mills cereal mascots with some being special golden ones instead. On a side note, I miss when Red Rose tea came with a little figurine. It was a nice bit of marketing that didn't get my family to drink more tea than we could have per day, just a cup after dinner, but we did only buy that brand.
I think a possibly fairer version of paid gacha or micro transaction mechanics in general is if there was maximum equal to the regular cost of a game. The 3DS Pokémon Picross was freemium but used this type of system with its energy bar and had a full game's worth of content so it didn't feel exploitative. Being monetarily fair is contrary to the point, but the average profit per download is fairly low. Nintendo tried so many different monetization techniques before settling on full gacha like everyone else, so maybe it's inevitable anyway.
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Post by kaoru on Oct 31, 2020 12:02:58 GMT -5
Genshin Impact is btw hardly a BotW clone, FWIW. It plays quite differently and has only some very basic things similar that BotW didn't come up with either. It kinda just looks like one on promotional material. And of course there's always the certain subset of Nintendo fans that only know like three franchises and when they finally play another game think everything's copied from there.
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Post by dsparil on Oct 31, 2020 12:30:32 GMT -5
Even if it isn't in practice, the promotional material 100% makes it seem like it is one. They're completely banking on people falling for that to download it in the first place.
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Post by Digitalnametag on Oct 31, 2020 12:45:04 GMT -5
Genshin Impact is btw hardly a BotW clone, FWIW. It plays quite differently and has only some very basic things similar that BotW didn't come up with either. It kinda just looks like one on promotional material. And of course there's always the certain subset of Nintendo fans that only know like three franchises and when they finally play another game think everything's copied from there. I have to disagree there. The stamina bar, climbing, gliding, beacons, and several enemy types are very clearly lifted from BotW. Sure other games have similar exploration mechanics but not quite in that configuration. Perhaps you have specific examples in mind? The combat is different from BotW (and an improvement in my opinion) but outside of the elemental reactions isn't all any more complex than say Skylanders. I was hoping for modern Ys style game-play but Genshin Impact is simpler than that. Probably has to be given it is also a mobile game. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 1, 2020 6:11:02 GMT -5
It's definitely one of the biggest issues in video games today, so I don't think you'll find anybody on this forum who disagrees with your premise. One thing I do disagree with though is the idea that these techniques wouldn't be accepted in full priced retail games. Now, I know there has been some pushback against EA's very extreme examples in Star Wars Battlefront, however FIFA is still a huge success every year, and The Ultimate Team makes them billions in each entry. Here are the covers for this years FIFA:   The thing that jumps out to me on those box arts of course - the age rating. In the US FIFA with it's gambling based gacha mechanics is considered suitable for everyone, and in the UK anyone of ages 3+. EA of course takes advantage of this and there are many cases of EA advertising The Ultimate Team through children's magazines As for the psychological issue, EA is known to employ psychologists in order to ensure these games gacha systems will be addictive in nature. Unfortunately we have circumstances in which companies will not change policies unless it is forced upon them. We have the ratings boards not taking responsibility and no doubt politicians only see the potential for money earning with these products. It seems there isn't much we can do about these issues except for make our voices heard and not spend our money on these sort of products. Now, as much as I'd like to see ratings increased there are other vulnerable people being targeted such as those with mental illness, so an age increase isn't enough to ensure protection and would only be a starting point. On a side note - you mention that gacha mechanics are hindering good game design. I don't agree with that. When developers and publishers stoop to these levels it is generally because it is much easier than attracting people through genuine creativity and these companies who choose this method would always choose the easier root such as jumping on the success of already successful games. We're ultimately not missing out on anything because these are not creative devs/publishers in the first place. Like Son of Suzy Creamcheese said - this has never impacted a product I was actually interested in. I can't possibly put that to a coincidence. Edit: Changed the word good to creative in the last paragraph. |
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Post by Digitalnametag on Nov 1, 2020 9:33:13 GMT -5
One thing I do disagree with though is the idea that these techniques wouldn't be accepted in full priced retail games. Now, I know there has been some pushback against EA's very extreme examples in Star Wars Battlefront, however FIFA is still a huge success every year, and The Ultimate Team makes them billions in each entry. Guess I wasn't clear there. By standard retail release I meant publishing the game without micro-transactions/loot boxes/gacha mechanics. So no disagreements here! As I'm sure most on here do I find EA one of the most reprehensible companies in existence. I knew about the Battlefront fiasco but didn't realize how much money FIFA Ultimate Team Mode was making them every year. Nothing like charging people money for something that would have been free in older entries. On a side note - you mention that gacha mechanics are hindering good game design. I don't agree with that. When developers and publishers stoop to these levels it is generally because it is much easier than attracting people through genuine creativity and these companies who choose this method would always choose the easier root such as jumping on the success of already successful games. We're ultimately not missing out on anything because these are not good devs/publishers in the first place. Like Son of Suzy Creamcheese said - this has never impacted a product I was actually interested in. I can't possibly put that to a coincidence. But here I disagree. There are plenty of series I like that got money grubbing mobile games instead of a new retail entry. Breath of Fire, Valkyrie Profile, Tales of, Fate, Final Fantasy, and more all have F2P titles. Years ago these would have been new home console or handheld entries. Publishers and developers do what makes them money. If loot boxes/gacha were closed off to them they would find another avenue to do so. Hopefully by making better games. |
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Post by 🧀Son of Suzy Creamcheese🧀 on Nov 1, 2020 14:26:22 GMT -5
I think for most games they probably wouldn't have made a proper (even handheld) entry if they hadn't made a cheap cash-in entry, but I'm sure there are some cases where that would have been the case. Again, I haven't had any games that would otherwise be exactly what I wanted if not for gacha/lootbox stuff, but I think that's more of a coincidence and just personal preference than anything else. A large part of that is that I have almost zero interest in mobile games and in triple-A games, which constitute the majority of these kind of games.
I will say though, regarding that Fifa boxart, besides being one of the butt-ugliest boxarts I've ever seen in my life, it is true that it's bizarre that age-ratings work like that. They had to get rid of the casino minigames in Pokémon due to rating issues (to be fair, we got Voltorb Flip out of it in HGSS, which I'll take over slot minigames anyday), but actual real gambling with money is somehow okay. 52 Worldwide games is rated 12 and has a gambling rating on the back because it has some card games in it and that's about the most kid-friendly game that exists. I'm guessing the rating boards can't really do anything about it since EA and other companies just have too much money and they will no doubt fight them as hard as they can on it.
So hopefully governments will still go harder on it. And I wish reviewers would have the balls to take a stand when games are as blatantly anti-consumer as, say, Fifa.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 1, 2020 14:42:27 GMT -5
So hopefully governments will still go harder on it. And I wish reviewers would have the balls to take a stand when games are as blatantly anti-consumer as, say, Fifa. Thing is with reviewers I don't think it's a lack of balls, but a lack of interest. I'm really only talking about the big sites here but unfortunately they are mostly glorified fans and as such don't critique any social issues whatsoever. For example just this year Persona 5 The Royal is one of the highest scorer's on Metacritic (a 93). How in 2020 a game that casually likens gay men to paedophiles can receive such high praise from so called journalists is beyond me. Thankfully there are a few, such as Jim Sterling, who do real journalism and highlight issues such as the ones raised in this thread. You guys could have really embarrassed me here - Persona 5 Royal did remove some of the homophobia in the western localisation. So replace that with 2017 and the original version. I'm afraid the thread has touched on some of my issues from the gaming industry so apologies for getting a little away from the topic. The below article is quite old but does highlight some of the issues with gacha systems and microtransactions. www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/amp/technology-48925623 |
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