Japanese console roguelikes

[Strider]

I actually did rather enjoy Chocobo's Dungeon 2 back in the day, but it's one of these games that I really only played through because it was summer break from College and none of my friends were around and what the hell else was I going to do after work.

On the other hand, I think it's simply hard for console roguelikes to compete with their PC equivalents- there's nothing I've played on a console that comes even close to the complexity level of Nethack, ADOM, or Angband, and those games are all free.

- HC

[Ike]

Naturally, but I've tried to play Nethack and it was just a bit much for me. I've since played Chocobo's Dungeon and I'm working my way through Nightmare of Druaga, and then I plan to move to Baroque. After that I think I'll understand the mechanics well enough to really appreciate the ancient PC roguelikes.

[Weasel]

Even having played a few of the Mystery Dungeon games (Shiren, Pokemon Explorers of Darkness, Chocobo's Dungeon 2 briefly) I'm not sure I like the Nightmare of Druaga. Part of the charm of these games, to me, is that the dungeons are random and thus more spontaneous. The fact that Druaga does not randomize the dungeons makes it seem more like a puzzle game, and not a particularly good one...

[Malroth]

I'd suggest playing either the DS Shiren or SNES Shiren again. Trust me, it's the quintessential rogue-like. It may seem slow at first, but it's freaking BRUTAL as you move on. The only thing that'll carry you though that game is your own personal experience, which is exactly what a rogue-like is supposed to be.

[kyouki]

I just wish these games had more options from the beginning. There is this slow part at the beginning where you are just finding basic weapons and healing items only, and the enemies have no techniques really, so it is just smacking each other back and forth until you get to the interesting stuff.

You eventually reach that point (allegedly!), where enemies are using fascinating techniques against you and you are carrying around all these bizarre items and stuff and it seems like the game finally gets interesting at that point. But with Shiren, I just got bored before I got there.

[kyouki]

Izuna 2 is pretty cool, by the time you get to the first real dungeon, you are bombarded with items and you are free to customize your weapon with seals, so you have a lot to play with right off the bat.

[Jave]

When did you first come into Shiren? Before or after having played the PC variety of roguelikes?

With a game like Nethack, there's a lot more options right from the start, obviously, but the barrier to entry is massive. If you're already past that barrier, then I can understand the early parts of Shiren being incredibly dull, but if you're new to the genre, like I was (I'm not sure I'm entirely willing to count Baroque) then it presesnt you with at least a bit of a learning curve, and by the time you're good enough to make it to table mountain on a mostly regular basis, you should have a good idea how the game works.

[kyouki]

Well, I've played Rogue and Nethack quite a bit, which as you say, is why I find the beginning of Shiren to be so dull.

I have only played Izuna 2 for maybe 30 minutes so far, but like I said above the first real dungeon gives you a ton of interesting items to play with (seals that can be used OR attached to your weapons, items you can consume or throw) plus the blacksmith back in town. That's within the first 30 minutes! Possibly sooner if you skip the tutorial. So even though it is pretty easy at first, you at least have a lot to play with with.

Shiren 3 seemed pretty much like the other games in the series... I got bored because after an hour of so of cinema scenes and dungeons where I was just amassing rice balls I just had had enough I guess.

[edit] hey, has anyone played "Rogue Hearts Dungeon" for the PS2? I am assuming it is a graphical version of Rogue, might be pretty interesting.

[King Frost]

I've played and a whole lot both Nethack and Shiren (DS). I've played them enough to be able to win without cheating. As already mentioned, Shiren is a lot easier to get into than Nethack. The basic techniques needed to win can be found reasonably well without external help. For the extra content, which is highly recommended, using Fays Puzzles and the Food and Traps dungeons let you train and figure out by your own more advanced topics that will definitely come in handy with the other more difficult dungeons.

Nethack, in the other hand, you basically have to read extensive FAQs to understand, not only how to play the game but to have a chance to figure out the advanced techniques and as a result, the game is very newbie unfriendly. You can do a lot more things in Nethack than in Shiren but this is also a problem, it's a lot easier to abuse the elaborate mechanics of Nethack. Usually, when I play Nethack, only the first 15 or so floors are interesting, if I managed to survive this far, my character is so overpowered (very low AC so I almost never get hit and I'm most likely immune to a lot of kinds of attacks) that it become boring to play. Shiren is done better here, yes, it starts very show but the difficulty keeps increasing unlike Nethack where the real difficulty is mostly starting a new game. Deaths in Nethack can be epic, sometimes a long struggle until you die, it's a shame that in Shiren, it's mostly stupid mistakes that cost me my games. There's more diversity in Nethack with the class you take at the beginning and you can also select difficulty this way (let's not kid ourselves, the Valkyrie is a lot stronger than the Tourist). The diversity in Shiren (extra dungeons with different flavors for the gameplay) is only unlocked after you have completed at least one time the game.

The only real negative thing I have to say against Shiren is that you can grind, for example, build up a weapon and shield in a 100% safe manner that you will ultimately use. Of course, attack and defense isn't the only thing but makes it a lot more easier.

I absolutely hate roguelikes where you keep your levels when you die because I feel like playing a substandard RPG because I can simply grind away a victory. I really like the fact that you are in constant danger in Nethack and Shiren and with careful resource management and tactics, you can get out of the most weird situations ever. The player skills are progressively getting better, not the character.

[loempiavreter]

Isn't the rengoku series on PSP an roguelike influenced series?

[Strider]

BTW: Those who didn't like Nethack may want to give the Angband/Moria family a try. Those are simpler, more hack-and-slashy variants of the Rougelike formula.

- HC