Japanese console roguelikes

[kyouki]

So does anybody here play these games?

I find these games to be pretty intriguing. Like Japanese console RPGs, they took an American game (Rogue), streamlined it, but kept a lot of the battle strategy/tactics.

However, as strategy games they definitely don't feel as deep as games like Nethack, etc. Although you typically have several tactical options at any time (during battle), the only real strategy overall is "keep going in the dungeon and pray." They typically don't have the rich array of non-combat commands games like Nethack have, which means that outside of combat you are limited to just walking or using items. No setting up safehavens or making tactical retreats or gaining favor with your god through sacrifices, etc.

And I can't shake the feeling that most of the Japanese roguelikes have some kind of adaptive difficulty going on. Shiren 1, for instance. Every time I start a new game my character dies very quickly. The more I play the deeper I get into the dungeon, but early in the game there is really no room for strategy or tactics at all. I mean, at that point you don't have a bunch of items to play with so there is really nothing you can do. And yet, each time I die and try again I make a little bit more progress. I know I am not getting better as a player at that point. So I suspect that the more you die/the more time passes, the more the game increases your luck. Just a theory!

But I enjoy them anyway, a lot more than most traditional Japanese RPGs.

Shiren Series
I've played most of the Shiren games. The first one is a lot of fun at first, but I get bored of it really quickly. I think the pacing is poor, the game takes way too long to introduce any variety. Shiren is interesting because of the unique monsters (who all have interesting abilities that can all interact) and items, but you don't encounter any of that for several entire dungeons. So the only meaningful decision you can really make during the first part of the game is "at what point do I stop fighting all the enemies and run." Which is pretty boring.

I've also played the third one, for the Wii, but the controls feel oddly unresponsive. It made it a little annoying to play so I gave up on it.

Torneko Series
I've got the PSX game but have only played it for a few minutes, to make sure the disc is okay haha. A lot of people who are into this genre really seem to like this one, so maybe I should give it a shot. The PS2 game has random wandering dungeons!!!

Izuna series
I just got the second game yesterday. Very talky for a roguelike, but at least you get to play a tutorial dungeon really early to break up the dialog scenes. You keep your level even if you die in this game, so I guess that is one thing that worries me.

So, any recommendations? I know someone else on this board must enjoy these games.

[kitten]

I've only played a very small number of roguelikes, but the two on consoles that I've played from Japan have both been very enjoyable.

Since you didn't list them, I'll suggest 'em, Baroque for the PS2/Wii and Fatal Labyrinth for the Genesis (it's on Sonic's Ultimate Genesis Collection).

[Atma]

Personally, I have a blast with Izuna. I'm a fan of all types of roguelikes of all kinds of difficulties and such, but as far as Japanese ones go, it's nice and refreshing to play. Great sense of humor and silly characters are always nice to have. I'd definitely try it if you're just getting into the genre as it's a bit easier and would tell seasoned rogue fans to try it as a break in between harder ones.

Not very many people like the Izuna games, though, so I'm unsure how much impact my recommendation here will have.

[Ike]

I'm a huge fan of Chocobo's Dungeon, especially the Wii one. They're basically My First Roguelike and the stories are generally terrible but the music is a sample from each numbered Final Fantasy (except 12) remixed fantastically and makes a great backdrop to a game that is way more adorable than it deserves to be.







I spent basically all of the last summer playing this game and I'm actually pretty close to completion but I kind of lost interest.

Basically, it's a pretty simple roguelike with all the basic makings: random dungeons, traps, treasures, et cetera. It takes the Final Fantasy twist of using the Job system, where the chocobo dresses up in different adorable outfits to kick ass.

This game really introduced me to the concept of roguelikes and now I'm working my way up the ladder to some of the harder ones.

[Weasel]

I'll second the Izuna series (actually sold Atma my copy, heh).

[Jave]

Dec 29, 2009 22:31:31 GMT -5 kyouki said:

And yet, each time I die and try again I make a little bit more progress. I know I am not getting better as a player at that point. So I suspect that the more you die/the more time passes, the more the game increases your luck. Just a theory!

Your luck varies from one adventure to the next (play enough times and at least once, you'll get swarmed in the first 30 seconds) but the thing is, if you talk to other people, and help them out, you make persistent changes to the world, even if you yourself drop back to level 1 and lose all your inventory, which helps tremendously.

I really like the original Shiren, myself... or more specifically, the DS version (which probably retools a few elements discreetly) but it is a game that can really only be played in short bursts at a time. I would advise people to really only play until you die, once or twice (maybe more if you died really quickly) then put it aside for the rest of the day. Otherwise, a lot of it's 16-bit design quirks (like the pacing) might start to grate.

--

I played through the Wii version of Chocobo's Dungeon, and found it to be, honestly, just a little on the broken side. Your food meter drops incredibly slowly, and cheaply and easily replenished, so there's really no reason not to fill out every map of every floor, kill every enemy, and collect every item. The fusion system, also, once mastered, allowed me to become a walking god, immune to several status effects, randomly casting sleep, and with money and exp boosts on every kill. There was no real reason to ever equip anything I found in the dungeons, I just kept some of it for fusing and sold the rest in order to raise money for more greens. Some of the job specific abilities were a little overpowered as well, like the ability to identify your entire inventory all at once.

The only exception were the special rule dungeons, where you couldn't bring your inventory with you, and often had other handicaps, though I don't think these ever applied to your job level, meaning it was usually about finding the special ability that got you through, and even within these dungeons, the difference in difficulty balance clearly communicated which ones were worth fighting through, and which ones were just there for post-game completionism.

Still, it's a pretty good looking game, and a lot of the more basic mechanics are still intact, so if you find the idea of Roguelikes a little intimidating, it's a good starting point.

[cj iwakura]

I really enjoyed Baroque, since you sort of get rewarded for the inevitable deaths. More of the story comes together.

[breakman]

The thing about the Torneko PS1 game is that all the dungeons in the main story gradually introduce gameplay elements. Like, certain types of items don't appear at all in ealier dungeons, and some types come pre-identified. After you "beat" the game, you unlock several big dungeons that incorporate all of the expected characteristics of a roguelike.

I really like The Nightmare of Druaga, for PS2. It's very different though, and (as a result?) not terribly popular. You retain your experience levels, you can take whatever items you like into the dungeons with you, and the main dungeon floors are not randomly generated. It also has even fewer types of items that can be useful right when you pick them up - mostly you find weapons/armor that usually aren't even good until you go back to town to combine them with other equipment. It does, however, have a much more complex battle system than other Mysterious Dungeon games.

[zenicreverie]

I need to play more games, but I'd suggest Azure Dreams on the PS1. Don't get the GBA port. There's an article about it on the site here if you want to read up.

[Ike]

Nightmare of Druaga is a lot of fun. I wish the dungeons were randomly generated, but at the same time they're set up a little bit different than most roguelikes and in such a way that it would remove a lot of their charm. I feel like I'm actually penetrating the depths. :3

[Dais]

oh wow, only having played the Baroque remake and Fatal Labyrinth. There's a pretty rich world out there just waiting for ya.

I played Izuna and I rather like it (the talisman system is especially interesting), but it really feels unpolished. Pretty much every item in Shiren has a use and the game is based around that, but with Izuna, a lot of items just seem pointless, especially given how much you can farm. Maybe if you could add status effects to the caltrops and such...

Dec 29, 2009 22:31:31 GMT -5 kyouki said:

However, as strategy games they definitely don't feel as arbitrary and radom as games like Nethack, etc. Although you typically have several tactical options at any time (during battle), the only real strategy overall is "learn to understand and exploit the relationships between items and monsters." They typically don't have the rich array of nerd injokes and unpredictable instadeaths games like Nethack have, which means that outside of combat you are limited to just walking or using items. No dying from putting an unidentified item in the wrong place or getting a random reaction from a fountain that totally screws you over or some other damn insanity like your pet eats something in a store and the shopkeeper kills you, etc.

amen, brother.

(I'm half kidding)

PS: clearing the main dungeon in Shiren once allows you to inscribe a scroll that will protect you from any melee attacks while you stand on it, and also allow you to prevent monsters from moving into rooms (since they can't move on to it). Sound familiar?

And I can't shake the feeling that most of the Japanese roguelikes have some kind of adaptive difficulty going on. Shiren 1, for instance. Every time I start a new game my character dies very quickly. The more I play the deeper I get into the dungeon, but early in the game there is really no room for strategy or tactics at all. I mean, at that point you don't have a bunch of items to play with so there is really nothing you can do. And yet, each time I die and try again I make a little bit more progress. I know I am not getting better as a player at that point. So I suspect that the more you die/the more time passes, the more the game increases your luck. Just a theory!

well:
1. You can always get a rice ball from the bar
2. You can get items from Fay's puzzles
3. If you run into the messenger, he will take an item back to the warehouse for you (and if you're playing the DS version, you can stock items from Fay's puzzles in the warehouse)

not to mention the various side-quests that stay completed even if you die (like the three party members) or saving a weapon or shield in a warehouse and slowly improving it for a future run...

I've played most of the Shiren games.

(....)

So the only meaningful decision you can really make during the first part of the game is "at what point do I stop fighting all the enemies and run." Which is pretty boring.

*sigh*


I can't remember whether I ended up getting around to writing the list of console roguelikes or the list of handheld ones...

ah, here we go, it was console.

roguebasin.roguelikedevelopment.org/index.php?title=Console_roguelike

man, I wish I had the energy to actually keep improving that article.

oh hey, someone did a proper write-up of Lufia 2 and Disgaea. Although they added a Homestar Runner reference :\

[ryochan]

Doesn't Time Stalkers on the DC count as a roguelike?

[loempiavreter]

And the evolution games (especially the Neogeo pocket one).

[Dais]

Oh yeah. I always forget about Time Stalkers. Despite owning it and being a Climax fan.

I actually wish it was a lot more like conventional roguelikes - less dungeon crawling, more strategic use of resources and positioning. The interest has to be generated either by the dungeon itself or what you do in it , and Time Stalkers didn't really do either for me (few games do both). I played through a few segments to see the weird islands that would show up in the main hub, but I lost a lot of interest when I fully realized that I'd be switching out one playable character for another, never able to combine their skills and cover their weaknesses.

I know there are some others I'm forgetting (there's certainly more Japanese ones on the PS1, including a Doraemon one), and I guess the Pokemon MD Wiiware games count as being on a console....

And I need to do the handheld page sometime. All the little ones that are worth noting but not playing, like Sakura Taisen DS (you actually start with permanent party members), Dungeon of Windaria (pretty shameless Shiren clone by Compile Heart), the Monster Gate GBA titles based on the Konami arcade games, Dokapon GBC/GBA (which combine roguelike qualities with the R/P/S battle system)....ugh.

wait, there's Cave Noire. That's a pretty awesome GB one that's randomized, although it's rather arcade-like in it's simplicity. Everybody go play that.

[Garamoth]

This topic got me to try Chocobo Dungeon 2 for PS1... on an emulator.

My little chocobo is sending shockwaves of buggy 3D models around himself. Not a pretty sight. Did anybody run into the same problem? Is anybody here an expert on ePSXe?

EDIT: Do you guys recommend Nightmare of Druaga on PS2? Is it a good choice?