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Post by necromaniac on Jun 10, 2006 5:52:19 GMT -5
I'm still crying because of Aeris's death. Does that make me emo?
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Post by YourAverageJoe on Jun 10, 2006 6:02:27 GMT -5
No, that makes you wierd.
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Post by necromaniac on Jun 10, 2006 6:33:12 GMT -5
In actuality, I kind of cheered when Aeris died. See was anoying and I barely felt any sparks between her and Cloud. I also wasn't that shocked or supriced, having played Phantasy Star IV a couple of years before. Sephiroth's smile was a nice touch though.
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Post by ReyVGM on Jun 10, 2006 6:53:37 GMT -5
Who cried with Klonoa's ending? If you did then you're a friend. I cried, but I'm not a friend.
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Post by necromaniac on Jun 10, 2006 7:54:05 GMT -5
friends don't cry, at least not in Britain
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Post by shido on Jun 10, 2006 8:17:07 GMT -5
I shed a tear in Xenogears and in Suikoden 2
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Post by Discoalucard on Jun 10, 2006 8:58:28 GMT -5
The American gaming populace in general doesn't have nearly the problem with "emo" main characters a lot of people posting here think they do. I mean the majority of people in the US who bought and enjoyed Final Fantasy X did so because it's a turn based fantasy RPG with a storyline that drew them in. Kurt, while I do dislike Final Fantasy X myself, I think you're jumping the gun by using a lot of hating-what's-popular-backlash minded nerds that post on internet forums' opinions as a basis for what Americans in general think about RPG characters and the like. The people who hate on Final Fantasy X online are vastly outnumbered by the people who made the game go greatest hits several times over. It is a very well received game among gamers in general that still sells. Even now, I see a variety of Americans of different ages, etc. that want it or that got it and loved it. Don't let these people get drowned out by people that online minority that thinks they have to constantly show themselves to be above anything they think could be construed as weakness. While these people may be a very vocal minority, I'm not going to write off their complaints immediately because of it. I'm sure a lot of ire directed towards Final Fantasy in general is based on it's popularity, there's a reason why people feel this way and I'm curious as to why it's so (relatively) widespread, and it goes deeper than just hating what's popular. I think labeling it an "american" trait may have been too hasty, but you can only really deal with generalities when it comes to cultures to begin with.
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Post by Neo Rasa on Jun 10, 2006 10:55:08 GMT -5
In this case then, I would say one reason is they DO identify with such a character all too well, and that level of identification is what they want to escape. This would cause a blacklash and/or denial of the game being any good because the main character is "weak." Either way I wouldn't say it's particularly widespread.
Another reason I could see is the amount of handholding done in general in many RPG and adventure games that come out today. Going by customers I talk to about this stuff and my own experiences, this can have the opposite effect of my first reason; they end up not identifying with the character at all. Which means all that's left to draw them in is SquareEnix's translation skills.
That said though, it really does come down to the writing/translation quality, which I wasn't too fond of with FFX. The writing quality is to me what draws the line between a character being a whiny dork and character having a lot of depth. As an example I'd cite the evolving translation of FFIV as why it has held up so well over the years. They really did have the game grow up with its US audience in that respect, pulling in new fans at the same time.
Personally, that's the main thing I dislike about "emo" characters in Japanese entertainment, the pacing inherent to a Japanese story combined with the translation quality makes for a pretty awful combination to me. The pacing inherent to a Japanese story combined with a good translation is solid gold, even with the weakest plot and the most cliched characters.
Oh man, offtopic but did you ever see the earliest trailers for Zone of the Enders: The 2nd Runner? The translation was awesome in all the early trailers and then they dumbed it down significantly for the final release. If they didn't I'd say more mature people would have gotten into it. Lines like "Jehuty is syncrhonizing itself with your cardiovascular system," are now "The machine is doing the work of your heart and lungs for you." Not automatically WORSE but it either they cheaped out on the translating team or they wanted as many people to identify with it as possible. By being so general though I think it weakens the immersion overall.
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Post by MRSKELETON on Jun 10, 2006 14:19:10 GMT -5
Cloud isn't an anti-hero. Wolverine is an anti-hero. Spawn is an anti-hero. Cloud and squal are just jackasses. Squal moreso than squal
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Post by Scylla on Jun 10, 2006 17:12:18 GMT -5
I see Tidus as more of a whiny Gerber baby (literally his face looks like the Gerber baby half the time) than "emo". And I agree with mazinsaga that Cloud and Squall are just jackasses.
Really, it appeared to me that Americans were more clamoring for talkative, emotional leads than the Japanese. Final Fantasy VII is STILL the most popular RPG online, and I remember the days of PlayStation when RPGs with silent heroes were still occasionally coming out and the American journalists and fans would trash on the games because their leads weren't more like Cloud and other heroes that followed the standard set by FFVII. The Japanese public, however, loved those old-school style RPGs.
Personally, I like silent heroes. Not because I can't tolerate a chatty hero but because I like BEING the character more than some omniscient presence that's just watching the story play out from a distance like a movie. If they really want to thoroughly define the personality of the lead, then they must be prepared to have some gamers who simply won't like the kind of character created. I'm more than happy to read what an interesting character has to say, but when I don't find Cloud appealing whatsoever, that's significant damage to the possibility of me liking the game. Personally, I think one of the best leads was Crono. While he was virtually silent, he still had a personality about him (one that I also enjoyed), but you could also direct that inkling of a personality in whatever direction you want. While it didn't have a Fable kind of effect on the game, choosing positive or negative responses affected how I felt about Crono. (Personally, I don't have the heart to do anything that's not wholly good. :P )
As for romanticizing youth, I think ALL cultures do that, and honestly, I'm sick of it. I'm sorry, RPG developers, but age 16 wasn't the greatest year of my life I ever lived. I'm much more content being 23, and I greatly appreciate it when a game has heroes closer to my age. Unfortunately, since I'm a woman, I find it even harder to relate to RPG characters because the older characters are almost always men (or if there are older woman, they're evil and usually teased about their age as if they're old hags at 25). Granted, I'm not the type of female gamer that always has to play as a chick; in fact, when a choice is given in a game, I often choose a male character (like in fighting games). I just like to feel a little represented, you know? At least tri-Ace is pretty good about it, what with Valkyrie Profile having an absolutely awesome heroine and a cast with lots of 20-something and older women (unfortunately, VP2 is a bit of a step backward with its teenage girl lead). Star Ocean: Blue Sphere is pretty cool with age too, since it's two years after Star Ocean: The Second Story, which didn't have an extremely young cast in the first place. Out of 10 playable characters, I believe only 3 were under 20. And no stupid bearded old men either. While they can sometimes be pretty badass characters, they're getting way too stereotypical as any random RPGs one and only old character.
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ma201
New Member
?What you like and what you intend no one ever really knows, I suppose.? -- Bryan Hitch, Ultimates
Posts: 48
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Post by ma201 on Jun 10, 2006 17:15:36 GMT -5
The thing that makes Spidey not as much an emo as Tidus is all from the early years, before some jackass took over the writing from Stan Lee, and don't even try to get into a discussion about that with me... after the writers changed hands, the whole book went crappy. Totally CRAPPY. And so now it is Emo.
The other thing: stories in Role-playing games depend on two different things: the characters and the plot. If the characters are interesting, then you can get into the game very easily with the plot. But if you don't have a good plot, or if the characters are very annoying, or the voice acting (if it is in the game...) is bad, then the rest of the game will probably not entice you if the game revolves around these elements.
This would have happened, in my mind, to tales of symphonia, because the main character was a little bit dumb-founded and really quite bitchy, his sidekick was named Genis, planning on going on an adventure wearing a pure-blue shorts-and-shirts outfit who fought with something that looked like a ping-pong paddle, and a girl who used a chackram but didn't do shit otherwise. The whole game could have gone to hell with it's weak and annoying plot, but it had a pretty damn good fight system that I really liked, so it was more of an adventure game to me than an RPG.
But you don't always get that lucky...
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Post by Malroth on Jun 10, 2006 17:26:39 GMT -5
I think Cloud hit the jackass status when he beat the crap out of Aeris.
...Am I the only one who remembers this? It doesn't seem like anybody else mentions it.
Also, if FF7 was remade, I wonder if they would keep that scene.
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Post by ReyVGM on Jun 10, 2006 17:51:01 GMT -5
I'm really tired of this whole 16-year-old-kid-that-saves-the-world-from-a-demon RPGs already. When will we have an RPG with a REAL human as a last boss, maybe a political leader or a psychotic person that is taking over a country or city. No demons, no monsters and no alternate dimensions crap.
I think the story about a stupid ambitious human that tries to revive a god/demon to control it, but when the demon/god wakes up it turns against its 'master' (no!, how dare he?) and its up to the 16 year old cast to slay this uber powerful demon/god... BUT LET'S HURRY UP AND KILL HIM BEFORE HE GETS ALL HIS POWER BACK OR WE WON'T HAVE A CHANCE!! is really played out by now.
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Post by YourAverageJoe on Jun 10, 2006 17:51:51 GMT -5
My FF7 is pretty rusty, mind telling me when that happened? Or was that just when you throw barrels at her instead of the Shinra soldiers?
In reply to Succubus: Chrono was indeed a very fine character, he could be an awesome badass or a whiny bitch if you imagined it, that greatness also goes to Byuu, who really got screwed over but could regardless remain calm if you wanted him to. Also, what about the Fallout series' Vault Dweller and Chosen One? Those two got to talk, but you could always choose how to interact with everyone; you could be a diplomatic hero, a serial killer, or even a cold-hearted criminal if you played your cards right.
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Post by Scylla on Jun 10, 2006 18:06:55 GMT -5
The whole game could have gone to hell with it's weak and annoying plot, but it had a pretty damn good fight system that I really liked, so it was more of an adventure game to me than an RPG. But you don't always get that lucky... That's where the haters of FFX come in (and FF7, 8, what have you), I think. Some people will love the stories and characters, sure, but where is the back-up in the form of gameplay if they don't? Personally, I play an RPG for gameplay first and foremost, and if the battles are dull AND the characters are annoying, what hope does the game have left? While I didn't like a single character in FF7, I would've been more than happy to tolerate them if the battle system intrigued me. Unfortunately, it was a generic battle system that was almost no different from what came before it, it was extremely slow (even with it set to the fastest setting), AND it was extremely easy. FFX suffers from the same problem; it lacks innovation and it's just way too easy. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to tell that since FF7 Square has been creating the Final Fantasy series for the mainstream RPG player in mind, for RPG fans who care almost solely about the story and only see battles as something that gets in the way between cinematic sequences. There's no way in hell that this game design is going to please those who are most concerned with innovations in battling and a nice healthy challenge. These days gamers like myself have to largely turn to strategy RPGs and real-time battle systems like in Star Ocean and Tales. So it's not a matter of gamers not being able to handle some emotion or reality in their RPGs, not for the most part at least.
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