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Post by X-pert74 on May 8, 2011 15:41:42 GMT -5
I wish Mass Effect had more variety with alien races, but at least they featured some male Quarians in 2 (when the first game has only female ones). I also agree about their attempts to have same-sex relationships. I'm not familiar with the Dragon Age series, but having only Liara as an option (and only for female Shepard) seems kind of weak to me.
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Post by derboo on May 8, 2011 16:14:39 GMT -5
If you liked a series that was all about Italian criminals, then suddenly don't want to play one with a black guy as the lead character, you appear to be racist. There's a big difference between being racist and being wrongfully judged as racist by people who either don't care to or are to narrow-minded to consider other explanations. I do get the special situation in the US. We have a similar kind of oversensitivity with antisemitism in Germany. But as with every social issue, there's a lot of people who do a great job to deal with the situation, there's people who are struggling with it, and there's people who just are complete asses about it. Is there a reason to question the motives of anyone who intentionally skips San Andreas after playing GTA3 and Vice City? Certainly. But it is very important to actually do the questioning before jumping to accusations. I wish Mass Effect had more variety with alien races, but at least they featured some male Quarians in 2 (when the first game has only female ones). I also agree about their attempts to have same-sex relationships. I'm not familiar with the Dragon Age series, but having only Liara as an option (and only for female Shepard) seems kind of weak to me. Are there any Quarians beside Tali at all in the first game? I don't quite remember... I find the criticism towards the lack of same sex romance options in RPGs odd, though. Kinda like calling a writer who never writes about gay protagonists a homophobe. |
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Post by Deleted on May 8, 2011 16:27:38 GMT -5
There's a big difference between being racist and being wrongfully judged as racist by people who either don't care to or are to narrow-minded to consider other explanations. I do get the special situation in the US. We have a similar kind of oversensitivity with antisemitism in Germany. But as with every social issue, there's a lot of people who do a great job to deal with the situation, there's people who are struggling with it, and there's people who just are complete asses about it. Is there a reason to question the motives of anyone who intentionally skips San Andreas after playing GTA3 and Vice City? Certainly. But it is very important to actually do the questioning before jumping to accusations. That's one of the unique things about online discussions, though. I don't feel awkward talking about this with you, since you've proven yourself to be a rational person in the past and don't fly off the handle. It's different in person, though. You can't go up to a person you've known for 20 years and say, "Hey, I noticed you loved GTA until you had the chance to play as a black guy. Is there any connection there?" That might be an exaggeration, but I think you know what I mean. You're absolutely right that there might be a reasonable, non-racist explanation for why some people chose to skip San Andreas. It's a very touchy subject, though. Sort of like if you're walking down the street, and you happen to cross over to the other side just as a black man is approaching you. Maybe you honestly just needed to cross the street at that precise moment. Even so, it makes you look racist. It's an unfortunate byproduct of this country's sordid history, and I don't think it's ever going to be fully resolved. |
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Post by derboo on May 8, 2011 16:38:37 GMT -5
That's one of the unique things about online discussions, though. I don't feel awkward talking about this with you, since you've proven yourself to be a rational person in the past and don't fly off the handle. It's different in person, though. You can't go up to a person you've known for 20 years and say, "Hey, I noticed you loved GTA until you had the chance to play as a black guy. Is there any connection there?" That might be an exaggeration, but I think you know what I mean. Yeah, I agree with that. I don't necessarily mean literally asking, though. Sometimes it's more about staying in doubt, reminding oneself that one doesn't know all the answers. |
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Post by wyrdwad on May 8, 2011 16:57:39 GMT -5
Personally, I skipped ALL the Grand Theft Autos, as I find the entire concept of the series wholly unappealing... but I can totally understand why someone might consider San Andreas to be racist. It's not because the main character is black, I don't think, but because he's a black man who engages in gang violence, grand theft auto and prostitution. It's every racist stereotype of the modern-day African American, all contained in a single character.
To the series' credit, EVERY Grand Theft Auto features a character who can be played with similar moral bankruptcy, and it took them until San Andreas to make that main character black -- making it, in a way, a very equal opportunity series, which I don't PERSONALLY see as racist... but considering how few black protagonists there are in video games, it IS rather unfortunate when one of the most prominent is (for most people) a thief, murderer and deviant, and I can totally understand someone choosing not to play the game. It could easily be an uncomfortable experience -- especially if you're someone involved in PR or a similar field, who's essentially programmed to look for and eliminate racial and sexual insensitivity. You can't help but think, the entire time you're playing the game, that it's just... reinforcing a negative stereotype in your head.
-Tom
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Post by Deleted on May 8, 2011 17:07:25 GMT -5
I thought it was a great game, but it had one of the same major flaws as GTA IV. Namely, the main character talks a lot about how he doesn't want to get involved in a life of crime again, but he doesn't hesitate whenever the opportunity comes up. He ends up all the richer for it, as well.
Granted, you couldn't have a Grand Theft Auto game where you weren't a criminal, but it's a bit much to believe that there's any kind of conflict within the character when he so readily does what he says he hates.
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Post by genkifan on May 8, 2011 17:11:08 GMT -5
I didn't like San Andreas because of the stereotypes it was perpetuating. It's one thing to have a game with goofy Italian/mobster stereotypes*, but something else entirely to have black, inner-city gangster stereotypes in a game that is going to be consumed primarily by affluent, non-black, suburban kids. And yeah, I'd consider anyone 18-25 to be a kid.
*I don't consider GTA's portrayal of Italians to be as problematic because Italian-American anti-defamation groups have their hands full with stuff like the Sopranos and Jersey Shore. Of course then you're getting into the whole, "Oh well, it's not your right to tell me what I should be offended by!" debate that Americans love.
My Chinese friend played the game for a few weeks, and the whole time he was speaking all this fake ghetto slang, which was totally embarrassing. It's not racist, it's just this kind of ugly cultural appropriation that isn't particularly sensitive (and I'm aware that it's not a videogame's job to be sensitive, if it were than this thread wouldn't last a page).
Now for sexist games, I think the Super Robot Wars series is pretty bad in that respect. It features a lot of that type of stuff that was mentioned about Okami in the original post. As David Brent said on The Office, "Now, you do not punish someone, Dutch or otherwise, for having big boobs."
I don't know about 'racist', per-se, but Japanese games are FILLED with, like, horrible stereotypes of 'tribal' people. Dark skinned people that act dumb or primitive are still considered humorous to them (or at least to their game designers).
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Post by Deleted on May 8, 2011 17:19:36 GMT -5
That's just it, though. I'm not sure I would say that San Andreas perpetuated stereotypes about black people. First of all, someone would have to be a rank idiot of the highest order to think that all black people are criminals. Beyond that, it's a story about the pressures of living in Los Angeles during the days of the RAMPART scandal. You'd pretty match have to approach that from the perspective of a criminal.
Also, it's GTA. This isn't a series that's known for it's engaging farm simulations.
Taken in the context of the series as a whole, San Andreas really wasn't about stereotypes. Also, C.J. wasn't really portrayed as a stereotypical gangbanger. He wasn't into violence for the sake of violence, dealing drugs, doing drugs, abusing women, etc. Certainly, you could kill prostitutes by bashing their heads in with dildos, deal crack cocaine and rob people's homes in the middle of the night. Those weren't required parts of the game, though, just as playing the Sith route is only one option in the Star Wars RPGs.
Still, it's easy to see how many people could view it as stereotypical, especially black people themselves. At least Charlie Murphy was in it...
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Post by acidonia on May 8, 2011 17:36:59 GMT -5
Are we talking about the Japanese version of D.J. Boy with the farting black mama boss? The funny thing about that they the Edited the Sprite for Outside Japan but not the Picture of her after the Boss. Well it like in the Pal version must admit I never got passed level 2 on that game kinda harsh having no continues what so ever when bosses can kill you in under 2 attacks. www.vazcomics.org/mamend/gamend/mgd/djboy.htm |
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Post by genkifan on May 8, 2011 17:37:05 GMT -5
If it were a movie, it would be a blacksploitation film. There was ghetto slang, gang colors, black people dealing with poverty in pretty violent ways. Even if Rockstar's entire staff was black, it wouldn't make it any better. One of the many reasons Chappelle said he stopped his show was because he didn't like that he was perpetuating stereotypes (even if it were so silly that you'd have to be stupid to think it represented black people at all, that's not the point).
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Post by wyrdwad on May 8, 2011 17:53:10 GMT -5
On the subject of other games, I'm surprised no one's brought up the English release of Persona 1 yet, where they turned Mark black because he was a gang member.
That's about as racist a localization move as you can get.
-Tom
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Post by Ryu the Grappler on May 8, 2011 17:53:30 GMT -5
The funny thing about that they the Edited the Sprite for Outside Japan but not the Picture of her after the Boss. Well it like in the Pal version must admit I never got passed level 2 on that game kinda harsh having no continues what so ever when bosses can kill you in under 2 attacks. www.vazcomics.org/mamend/gamend/mgd/djboy.htmThe American version of D.J. Boy is impossibly hard if I recall correctly (almost to the same level as Bayou Billy). The Japanese version is much easier. Why did they remove the opening and ending in the American version? The opening and ending in the Japanese version actually had pictures in them (not just text). Looking by the date on both ROMs, it's obvious the American version came out later. |
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Post by acidonia on May 8, 2011 19:24:13 GMT -5
The funny thing about that they the Edited the Sprite for Outside Japan but not the Picture of her after the Boss. Well it like in the Pal version must admit I never got passed level 2 on that game kinda harsh having no continues what so ever when bosses can kill you in under 2 attacks. www.vazcomics.org/mamend/gamend/mgd/djboy.htmThe American version of D.J. Boy is impossibly hard if I recall correctly (almost to the same level as Bayou Billy). The Japanese version is much easier. Why did they remove the opening and ending in the American version? The opening and ending in the Japanese version actually had pictures in them (not just text). Looking by the date on both ROMs, it's obvious the American version came out later. Japanese making their games harder for outside Japan was quite common back then. They did it because of Rentals that was ilegal in Japan at the time. So for outside Japan they made their games harder so you could not beat them by Renting them. The European version of D.J Boy is the same as the american one most magazines at the time gave it low scores just for the Stupidly hard boss fight's they added in. Mega Cd version of Final Fight was alot harder outside japan as well. Though the one of the odder cases of this has to be Shadow of The Beast the Megadrive version. Japan got the game a year after everyone else. The game was made more easy and had a option screen so you could start with more health. The character Sprite was improved along with everything else except the backgrounds. Enemys was more detailed and more brighter colours. Beating the game does not give a lame well done screen anymore but show you transforming into the Player Sprite of the sequel. Though the Sequel was never brought out in Japan. No other version of the game (I think) has this ending. |
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Post by Ryu the Grappler on May 8, 2011 19:35:42 GMT -5
Duh! I already know why developers make their games harder outside Japan. Game rentals are illegal in Japan, so they don't have to worry about people not buying their games over there if they clear it in one rental. My question was about the different ending in the Japanese version of D.J. Boy (the fact that it has an actual visual instead of being text only). www.vgmuseum.com/end/genesis/a/djap.htm |
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Post by kitten on May 8, 2011 20:59:06 GMT -5
On the subject of San Andreas, I'd always had extremely little interest in the GTA series, but I would play it for a few minutes just to go on a silly rampage every once in a while when a friend brought it over. San Andreas, on the other hand, I straight up wouldn't even let on my TV. I hated the characters and lifestyle portrayed in that game significantly more than in the other GTA games. Call it racism if you want, but if it is racist to despise that way of life, hideous humor, terrible music and fucked up sense of morality, then, well, I guess I'm "racist." I mean, I generally hate most things about the GTA games, and really only enjoyed IV due to thinking Brucie was funny (I rarely find a damn thing about GTA games remotely funny) and feeling like the game actually had structure and a kind-of interesting plot. I just really hated San Andreas. I can't believe nobody has brought up Other M yet. So: Other M. qft |
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