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Post by Discoalucard on May 19, 2011 23:07:16 GMT -5
This here's a work in progress, though it's mostly done...figured I'd stick it up pre-emptively if anyone wants to give it a read. King's Field is most widely known as the predecessor (of sorts) to Demon's Souls, which makes for interesting reading. It's got a couple of spinoffs too: www.hardcoregaming101.net/kingsfield/kf01.htm
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Post by Feynman on May 20, 2011 2:02:49 GMT -5
The author gets bonus points for use of the term "immersive simulation." The immersive sim really deserves recognition as a proper genre, but because games of that sort are so rare, they are generally referred to as simply "FPS RPGs" or other such hybrid mash-ups out of convenience (and I've been guilty of this more than once myself).
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Post by TheGunheart on May 20, 2011 3:56:47 GMT -5
Think it's worth mentioning the Moonlight, given it's prevalence in other From Software works?
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Post by derboo on May 20, 2011 4:02:26 GMT -5
The author gets bonus points for use of the term "immersive simulation." The immersive sim really deserves recognition as a proper genre, but because games of that sort are so rare, they are generally referred to as simply "FPS RPGs" or other such hybrid mash-ups out of convenience (and I've been guilty of this more than once myself). What would be the defining differences between ordinary first person RPGs or first person ARPGs and "immersive simulations" as a genre?
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Blake Casimir
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Space meditations from Alpha Centauri.
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Post by Blake Casimir on May 20, 2011 4:56:03 GMT -5
Some more thoughts on the Immersive Sim, by Kieron Gillen. (and some reactionary thoughts from TTLG) "Every Immersive Sim - and there hasn’t been many - made after the splintering of Looking Glass has been an attempt to work out how on earth they can lower the bottom end of the genre - that is, make it more accessible - without losing the top end of the genre - that is, the breadth of expression, the immersion into the world. " I'm not in the habit of lamenting, but the lack of new immersive sims, and - as Kieron describes - developers attempts to simplify them and shape them into something "more accessible" is truly depressing. No, I didn't like Bioshock very much. Thanks for posting the article Kurt. Someday I'll actually get around to playing Shadow Tower Abyss... Also, as of this writing, this is a slightly out of date version of the article and I've since had a little help (thanks Magnus) correcting some factual errors. Sorry Kurt, I'll leave it alone now, promise! Edit: Here is another excellent blog posting about immersive simulations, and a good series of articles on Rock Paper Shotgun.
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Post by justjustin on May 20, 2011 10:50:39 GMT -5
*subjective comment warning*I thought all videogames were immersive simulations, or at least try to be. What's more immersive about these games versus any others? Wouldn't the crappy ones fail to be immersive? Only the best games are most immersive. They make you totally forget what's going on in the real world. Simulation is an even broader term, and it applies to every videogame. That is what differentiates them from other kinds of art. The rest represent things, videogames simulate things. I don't think the term means anything, or at least it's meaningless when trying to describe a specific genre. Every other genre name actually (at least tries to) describe its form. Immersive simulation could be anything, and is an unnecessarily obscure term. What's more, "immersive simulation" basically means "good game." The term itself begs the question.
So, nice try first-person (sometimes shooter) RPG fans! I'm on to you. Yes, I've enjoyed some games from this particular genre, but not all immersive simulations are necessarily immersive simulations.*subjective comment warning*
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Post by Feynman on May 20, 2011 12:26:51 GMT -5
I think that saying "every game tries to be immersive and simulate something so that term is meaningless" is being very picky about semantics, in the same way the occasional person tries to say "well in every game you play a role so all games are RPGs." No. Here's a pretty good definition. Note that the list of applicable games is user-edited, and there are a few games on that list that don't really belong there. Bioshock, Amnesia, and Condemned are not immersive sims.
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Post by derboo on May 20, 2011 12:42:25 GMT -5
I now kinda get what this is about, although the term makes it sound somewhat pretentious, in a league with "Interactive Fiction".
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Blake Casimir
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Space meditations from Alpha Centauri.
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Post by Blake Casimir on May 20, 2011 13:54:09 GMT -5
I was wondering how long it would take for a hater to arrive. Whether immersive sims are "high-brow" or not (Seriously guys? Do they really seem "pretentious"? Honestly that sounds like nonsense to me), they attempt to bring together a lot of different ideas with the aim of providing something deeper than a game where you jump on koopas and collect coins (for example).
And, you know, there is enough space in the world for System Shock AND Mario.
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Post by justjustin on May 20, 2011 14:14:34 GMT -5
That's not the issue I have. Mine is a linguistic one and, as feynman pointed out, totally semantic. All games, no matter how shallow or complex, can be immersive. My own experience tells me that a brilliantly designed arcade game can be a totally hypnotizing experience, and games that fall under the immersive simulation category are not necessarily immersive. It doesn't have to be a sandbox or role-playing game to be immersive. All videogames, regardless of genre or complexity, simulate plausible worlds based on sets of rules using machine language. How can "immersive simulation" be exclusive to sandbox RPGs and the like, unless they are assuming some sort of superiority in immersion or simulation, or using alternate-- highly contextual and specific-- definitions? How can one measure if a game simulates "more" than the other? Are certain videogames formats inherently more immersive than others? These are the kinds of questions that instantly come to mind upon seeing the terms immersive simulation. I find it obscure and arbitrarily exclusive to sandbox RPG-type games.
I am not calling for a boycott on this term I just came across today or anything. I don't think it's stupid, it's either just outdated or has too many pitfalls (too many unanswerable questions surrounding it) for me to take seriously. I think it serves to obfuscate more than clarify what these games are.
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Blake Casimir
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Space meditations from Alpha Centauri.
Posts: 105
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Post by Blake Casimir on May 20, 2011 15:17:26 GMT -5
Justin, I am about to finish another article covering a game that is an immersive simulation, but is neither a sand-box nor an RPG. I would invite you to read it if Kurt is kind enough to publish it.
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Post by justjustin on May 20, 2011 15:41:18 GMT -5
Certainly. I'm not opposed to reading things just because they use certain words. Just to be clear your King's Field writeup is quite good. I was just giving my impressions on what I thought about immersive simulations as a way to describe games since others brought it up. I hadn't encountered it until today.
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guyra
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Post by guyra on May 20, 2011 18:36:31 GMT -5
I'm not going to go into the debate on "immersive simulation", but I do want to say that this is a great article, a really good piece of work! Having done quite a bit of King's Field related research myself, I have to say that this could possibly be the largest and most in depth article on the series as a whole, too. So that's pretty much a great gift for hardcore fans of the series.
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Post by MRSKELETON on May 22, 2011 0:46:31 GMT -5
This is a neat article! I've never played Kings Field (Or even Demon's Souls!)
Also, I remember there being a very Kings Field like game on the PS2, it was Japanese and had that kind of 'Japanese horror' vibe going for it.
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Blake Casimir
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Space meditations from Alpha Centauri.
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Post by Blake Casimir on May 22, 2011 5:19:35 GMT -5
Mazinsaga, I'm not sure if it's the same game but I have covered a rare and little-known first-person horror game for PS2. The article is done, just waiting for it to hopefully be posted.
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