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Post by thoothan on Aug 31, 2014 8:47:46 GMT -5
This thread is gonna go places
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Post by Ike on Aug 31, 2014 8:56:32 GMT -5
Maybe I should rephrase it a bit Dev behind this claims (on a youtube comment, though the account is legit) that he was denied coverage by a corrupt "journalism" industry, reasons being sexism and whatnot. I advised against reading the yt/steam forum comment section since the discussion there focuses more on "political correctness" than the actual merits/shortcomings of the game. After noting that this is a worrying example of game journalism in its pursuit of sensationalism and politics actually is trying to kill a game here (and not even a bad quality game), I put that disclaimer just in case based on how similar discussions often derail into a completely unrelated and awful drama. Lol the dev can claim whatever he wants, but from having just seen the video, and knowing nothing else about the game, to me it looks like it's just a really uninteresting game. The gameplay is really slow and plodding, the shmup sections have a weird small resolution to them and don't look interesting or fun to play, the main character looks ludicrous and not even in a fun over the top way like Bayonetta. Maybe it's not that there's a conspiracy against your fragile manhood? Maybe the game just isn't very good to start with?
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Post by alphex on Aug 31, 2014 9:28:44 GMT -5
Also, since I just noticed it... "bitch what you doin outside the kitchen LOL U MAD"? Seriously?
The best marketing money can buy! And by money, I mean monopoly money.
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Post by wyrdwad on Aug 31, 2014 10:26:09 GMT -5
But indie developers a) are young enough to b) know better and c) don't have to wave around tits to make sure everybody looks so they can make back their million dollar budgets. And I guess their audience minds. I take issue with this. There's no "knowing better" when it comes to a design choice. If you want a sexy female protagonist with bouncing boobs, then feature one -- don't let the PC police keep you from it. If anyone objects, let them make their own games to combat this. Hell, make a game with "package physics" for sexy dudes, and I'd be the first in line to cheer the developer for delivering a little equality into a largely male gaze-oriented industry. But just because male gaze is a thing doesn't mean there's anything specifically wrong with it. A sexy protagonist with jiggle does not invalidate a game's existence, nor detract from its quality. A good game is a good game and is worth calling out as a good game, even if it features full-on nudity and penetration. And while I can't vouch for this game, as I haven't played it... I think I'm going to, because it looks awesome. (Also, since it was mentioned: How come the Shantae games get a free pass when it comes to discussion about sexism in gaming? They've got skimpier outfits and more jiggle than most, and even full on toplessness [albeit undetailed] in the first game, as well as lots of lines with dual entendre, the classic "woman uses hair as a weapon" motif featured in a lot of games pretty much just for sexy value, butt-wiggling, and lots more that you'd think would make the series a prime target for people crying out against sexism in video games -- yet no one ever really says a negative thing about either title, nor the upcoming two Shantae games...) -Tom
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Post by alphex on Aug 31, 2014 10:53:48 GMT -5
You are right in so far as that of course you have the right to create any character you like. Nobody wants to deny the creator to make whatever game he wants to. He just has no right to bitch about people not liking his, either.
However, to argue that a dude packed in muscles is the same as a female with a slender figure and huge tits misses one key equivalent: Which one seems fragile, and which one seems like a badass that's gonna save the day? Of course, both are beauty standards. But only one of these standards implies physical dominance as well.
Back to the argument of sexism not invalidating a game's value: It depends. For example, I really like certain games for their atmosphere. For their setting. If graphics and environment truly didn't matter, I doubt I'd ever completed Seiken Densetsu 3. Because gameplay-wise, that is one simple game. But it still captivates you.
But just like likeable characters, a cool setting and splendid design can make people like a game more, a cheap, one-dimensional and chavvy main character can also make 'em dislike it. I enjoy Monkey Island more because I actually give a damn about what happens to the characters. This game features a main character whose distinct feature are jiggling boobs, and who represents a world-view I'm actually not too cool with. So of course it will hurt the enjoyment I get out of the game!
But then again, it seems you used the words "PC police" in a serious manner. That's biased conspiracy lingo 101, dude.
PS: Having watched a gameplay vid on Youtube, it seems that the main thing holding back the game was the gameplay, though. Thing seems to be boring as hell.
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Post by Bobinator on Aug 31, 2014 11:02:35 GMT -5
Speaking as somebody who owns the game, I'd agree that its biggest problem is that it's pretty dull. I couldn't really say anything about the main character, myself.
Music's great, though.
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Post by wyrdwad on Aug 31, 2014 12:20:06 GMT -5
However, to argue that a dude packed in muscles is the same as a female with a slender figure and huge tits misses one key equivalent: Which one seems fragile, and which one seems like a badass that's gonna save the day? Of course, both are beauty standards. But only one of these standards implies physical dominance as well. Who said anything about "dude packed in muscles"? I said a hot dude with package physics. Which is something my female coworkers have long said they'd love to see. Doesn't have to be some muscle-bound dude, though -- could be a Japanese-style "pretty-boy," slender and easy to dominate, but "packing some heat" down below. It's been suggested that a game featuring a guy like that, and applying jiggle physics to his downstairs equipment, would be a nice equivalency to the boob physics so often seen with well-endowed female characters. And I'd have to agree. The vast majority of female gamers I know would be ALL OVER THAT. Frankly, I'm surprised it hasn't happened yet (that I know of, anyway) -- seems like it's just a matter of time. No, it's pretty much reality. It seriously feels like people aren't allowed to enjoy something that's frivolous and titillating anymore without meddlesome whistle-blowers insisting they're wrong to enjoy it. It used to be (and still is, in Japan) that men could be all about their cheesecake half-naked women and the women in their lives would just take a "boys will be boys" attitude, and think nothing of it... but in the last 10-20 years, that's changed. There is no "boys will be boys" mentality anymore -- you're either "sophisticated" enough to be beyond such immature temptations (at least publicly), or you're a sexual deviant. That's why I'm glad for game devs like Kenichiro Takaki, the creator of Senran Kagura. He doesn't try to hide his shame -- he just comes right out and says things like, "I want to wrap the world in happy boobs," and most famously, "Tits are life; ass is hometown." He's all about the cheesecake and is PROUD to bring it to people, and that's the way it should be, as far as I'm concerned. I just wish we had more women objectifying men the same way, so there'd be a bit more equality in the industry. Right now, the only major male cheesecake franchise (currently, anyway) is "Free!", the swim-team anime -- and that one couldn't be MORE popular among the anime-watching female demographic. I have a feeling we'll be seeing a lot more shows and games like that in the future. -Tom
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Post by alphex on Aug 31, 2014 12:40:05 GMT -5
Good to know.
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Post by Ike on Aug 31, 2014 13:03:26 GMT -5
Thinking this thread's gonna give me a stroke
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Post by thoothan on Aug 31, 2014 13:09:43 GMT -5
I'm tired of people infringing on my rights as a man
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Post by kaoru on Aug 31, 2014 13:30:17 GMT -5
It's been suggested that a game featuring a guy like that, and applying jiggle physics to his downstairs equipment, would be a nice equivalency to the boob physics so often seen with well-endowed female characters. And I'd have to agree. The vast majority of female gamers I know would be ALL OVER THAT. Frankly, I'm surprised it hasn't happened yet (that I know of, anyway) -- seems like it's just a matter of time. It's not jiggle physics, but Saints Row 3/4 do apply the breast-size-adjuster to the package size of the male characters you can create. A nice change to guys in games normally - especially superheroes in thight clothing - being completely flat down there, making them come of as eunuchs or having the tucking pro skills of drag queeens.
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Post by derboo on Aug 31, 2014 17:16:45 GMT -5
Maybe choosing a title people can actually spell would have helped his game? Not making a dull, boring and flawed game certainly would. There's no "knowing better" when it comes to a design choice. If you want a sexy female protagonist with bouncing boobs, then feature one -- don't let the PC police keep you from it. If anyone objects, let them make their own games to combat this. Hell, make a game with "package physics" for sexy dudes, and I'd be the first in line to cheer the developer for delivering a little equality into a largely male gaze-oriented industry. If you want a black character who looks like Amos and Andy, that's a design choice, too. It's also racist, just like Ultionus' depiction is sexist. And no, having all the white characters look like Ned Flanders doesn't undo that. Your frankly almost cartoonish relativism shouldn't blind you from the fact that things have meanings to people. Yes, there IS knowing better and when you as a creator keep drawing sexist/racist/whateverist stereotypes, then either you the creator simply don't know better yet as an individual, or you've decided that whatever you're creating merits the isms. Whether it actually does remains for your critics to judge. But just because male gaze is a thing doesn't mean there's anything specifically wrong with it. A sexy protagonist with jiggle does not invalidate a game's existence, nor detract from its quality. A good game is a good game and is worth calling out as a good game, even if it features full-on nudity and penetration. And a sexist game is a sexist game and is worth calling out as a sexist game, even if it is really good (funny thing is, neither full-on nudity nor penetration imply sexism on their own). Saying "this game is shockingly sexist and makes me uncomfortable playing it" does not equal "this game has no value whatsoever". (Spoiler: Ultionus is not a very good game.) (Also, since it was mentioned: How come the Shantae games get a free pass when it comes to discussion about sexism in gaming? They've got skimpier outfits and more jiggle than most, and even full on toplessness [albeit undetailed] in the first game, as well as lots of lines with dual entendre, the classic "woman uses hair as a weapon" motif featured in a lot of games pretty much just for sexy value, butt-wiggling, and lots more that you'd think would make the series a prime target for people crying out against sexism in video games -- yet no one ever really says a negative thing about either title, nor the upcoming two Shantae games...) Shantae tends to get a pass because she also happens to be a likeable and empowered character with a personality - she's ultimately treated as more than an object. That said, the male gaze pandering in the games can get unpleasant nonetheless, and I expect WayForward to get a little more shit for it when the new games come out. applying jiggle physics to his downstairs equipment (...) The vast majority of female gamers I know would be ALL OVER THAT. Funny, the vast majority of female gamers I know would be either briefly amused (as in, finding it ridiculous and silly) and/or mildly grossed out by that.
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Post by strizzuth on Aug 31, 2014 17:41:20 GMT -5
Godwin's law in 5... 4... 3...
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Post by Ike on Aug 31, 2014 18:43:02 GMT -5
Godwin's law in 5... 4... 3... Literally Hitler
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Post by Deleted on Aug 31, 2014 19:40:36 GMT -5
All I care about is: what's the point of a gigantic HUD + screen border that shrinks the game into a tiny window, when you're not facing the memory limitations of a Commodore 64?
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